@gold: Rambo II, Mad Max 2, Aliens and Army of Darkness.

Also, while not in a trilogy, but a series. Casino Royale

Kylo Ren was *badly* written to be wrong.

"One doesn't just turn on their parents like that. Not after all the anguish he had gone through in killing his father and deciding not to kill his mother. There has to be some sort of catalyst done by them. Anakin doesn't decide to kill obiwan because he turned on the Jedi, he does it because of a perceived personal attack. One doesn't simply resolve to kill their loved ones without reason."

She is rebel scum. Note he was fine fire on the rebels earlier in the film, just not directly firing on her. So all that is needed is for him to get rid of a little piece of him, which probably he threw away the second he decided to kill Snoke as well. Also like...does he ever have a moment to directly kill her in the end of the film? Cause like if not, we can't even say he's resolved to kill her one on one. In which case this isn't even a potential inconsistency.

Empire Strikes Back. We started off with the concept that with the Force you could primarily feel life and change people’s minds. Moving ships? Ending on a massive cliffhanger? Luke’s father being alive? Vader surviving the end of New Hope? Obi-Wan, the wise and benevolent mentor, LYING to Luke?

He's stupid

he's impulsive, throughs tantrums, makes inconsistent decisions, and isn't even that scary. Rey ALREADY BEAT HIM IN 7! He's not scary, his motives are stupid

and he's one of the BEST villains in years?

no... just no

Rey beat him because he was SEVERELY injured and was also intentionally holding back the whole fight (and keeping her on the defensive for most of the fight even then).

Watched moviebob's review and he goes through most of the potential criticisms and explains why this movie is pretty good overall.

Link here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7UKW-dgZMU

Finished watched Moviebob too. I agree with just about everything he says, but I disagree with his assessment of the execution.

My criticism has never been with the ideas presented, but rather with the script and clutter of characters. A movie in the enormous and free form Star Wars universe needs to stay focused or the storytelling suffers. The right balance between big ideas and plot progression was not struck or even nearly approached.

Kylo-Ren rocks as a Battlefront II hero. My sons kills me routinely with Kylo-Ren on the dark side and Fin on the light side. How in the heck does Fin get this power that always hits? Han only gets lucky shot.

I listened to moviebob's review... I do have a problem with the basic material of the movies. they're building the new generation at the expense of the old. Luke they turned semi-evil, and into a really shitty person. Han is a single dad who can't get his shit together, and left Leia, and who gets killed by his son in one of the worst scenes in cinematic history after only the flower shop scene in The Room. Meanwhile Leia had zero ability with the force in 7 which was a let down, but then she's some weird god when unconscious?

They took my childhood's favorite characters... and I'm fine if you kill them off, but give them an exit to remember. And for god's sake don't make Han and Luke TERRIBLE people just to set up the new generation

Han should have died with the Falcon and Chewie. Zero questions in my mind about that, maybe go down destroying the starkiller base... something more than what he got.

Luke's death was better... but WHY did he die? he was just really tired out from making a hologram for that long? Is that it? The force use to be a fairly simple concept, but now an outside person can bridge minds between two people, you can make holograms, you can throw lightning after your death!

WHAT IS GOING ON!?!

And if the New Generation were better I could overlook it but... they ruined Han and Luke, and Han's death was terrible.

and for what? Mary Sue, Frat Poe and LITERALLY Janitor Fin?

I mean for god's sake people, Kylo Ren isn't even scary because as @TrPrado said, yes he was injured by Chewie when fighting Rey, but at the same time Rey within DAYS of learning about the force could MIND CONTROL AND RETRIEVE LIGHTSABER WITH HER MIND. her learning curve is immense

Meanwhile Poe they tried to make kind of dumb and rash, but Purple ABSOLUTELY is the first bearer of blame for what went down there. Worried about a mole my ass... there were ZERO references to ANYTHING like that the entire movie, YOU are making up excuses there. furthermore, if there IS a mole, then you're fucked NO MATTER WHAT, as soon as you go onto the transports the guy is just going to report that in. THAT time frame does not matter for the first order!

And the Rose/Fin chemistry is almost non-existent, the Casino scene was terrifyingly stupid. and may I just point something out: Rose REALLY doesn't know shit. she was on some mining world, and she's just assuming that EVERYONE at the casino is rich BECAUSE of arms trading? EVERYONE??? Bitch. Please. War isn't the ONLY thing that makes rich people you shithead. And that whole *takes off the saddle* "now it was worth it" scene... so
"the animals can have 10 minutes of freedom before getting rounded up again, but your friends are gonna all die" KIND OF WORTH IT????

And Fin can beat up Phasma? The Janitor vs the captain? Sure... but whatever, Rose saving him on his suicide run, and from her perspective dooming the resistance, and buying the two *maybe* five minutes until the ATATs blow them up is worth it. They have NEGLECTED Fin's story line and he went from someone who I thought I could get behind in 7, to someone who seems entirely ancillary now.

Secondary Rant over

and btw, the lightspeed-into-a-ship is a legitimate question as to why NOBODY did that with the Death Star in 4 or 6

yeah yeah go ahead and bitch about how I'm "overanalyzing" but it's literally the most basic question one could ask and it IS an inconsistency no matter how you look at it.

sorry, but that's just the truth.

“and btw, the lightspeed-into-a-ship is a legitimate question as to why NOBODY did that with the Death Star in 4 or 6”

A) their ships were much smaller
B) requires an immense sacrifice
C) Death Stars were always by inhabited planets, so it was even more dangerous than hitting Snoke’s ship in the middle of nowhere

“The force use to be a fairly simple concept”

Yeah, way back before mind powers could be used to summon LIGHTNING FROM YOUR FINGERTIPS. Like, are we forgetting how out of the blue that was in ROTJ?

Also, considering how often Rey fails she’s not a Mary Sue.

“and who gets killed by his son in one of the worst scenes in cinematic history after only the flower shop scene in The Room.”

You’d do well to be a tad less dramatic about a well-shot well-acted scene that had space for better writing.

GOD DAMNIT MY INTERNET KEEPS DISCONNECTING SO I CANNOT REPLY ONE MINUTE

Your internet knows you’re wrong and is too embarrassed to post it.

"A) their ships were much smaller"

Wrong, that was a Mon Calamari cruiser, the frigate appears in 4, 5, and 6. and yes the death star is bigger, but Snoke's ship DWARFED the other ones, and they could have at LEAST hit the core of the Death Star.



"B) requires an immense sacrifice"

In 4 the ENTIRE rebel base is about to be blown up at Yavin 4, so ONE guy is not that big. plus, they had autopilot and droids that could do it. not buying this answer.



"C) Death Stars were always by inhabited planets, so it was even more dangerous than hitting Snoke’s ship in the middle of nowhere"

now you're making stuff up. 1. the UNSHIELDED transports right next to Snoke's ship survived easily, as did the other star destroyers. plus, the death star's explosion didn't kill anyone. why? because in the vacuum of space the lack of particles means explosions are extremely contained.




"Yeah, way back before mind powers could be used to summon LIGHTNING FROM YOUR FINGERTIPS. Like, are we forgetting how out of the blue that was in ROTJ?"

um, yeah at the end of the trilogy it was a cool reveal of an big bad guy, the ultimate Sith. but now... they have 3 NEW POWERS introduced in the middle-movie, fairly casually and throughout? It just seems clumsy.




Rey's Failures:
- accidentally unleashing monsters on Han's ship, but that actually saved them in the end. even her failure was a success.
- she couldn't defeat Snoke, but she did predict Kylo would turn on him. once again, another failure turned success.
- she was initially paralyzed against Kylo in the forest in TFA



Rey's Successes: (and Mary Sue moments)

- she can pilot the millennium falcon and set up a 1/1000000 shot for Fin in TFA
- she knows more about the falcon and fixes something that Han couldn't
- she is an amazing pilot and mechanic despite being kept as a near-slave
- she resists Kylo's mind reading thingy
- she force wields a light saber without ever knowing how in the forest
- she defeats (albeit an injured) Kylo despite never having wielded a lightsaber before
- she mind controls Daniel Craig stormtrooper despite never knowing how
- she lifts rocks with no real intense training (the island was nothing, she only felt the force)
- she can speak Wookie despite never having left Jakku

and MANY more.

I mean... she uses the force to catch the lightsaber in the forest. so much bullshit in TFA

"why? because in the vacuum of space the lack of particles means explosions are extremely contained."

Yanik...that is not how explosions in space work. Debris will just keep accelerating out because there is no resistance force. Like the only reason this wouldn't happen would be if the debris is vaporized before it travels. Explosions in space are not "easily contained" at all.

“she couldn't defeat Snoke, but she did predict Kylo would turn on him”

Her prediction was that Kylo Ren would be good. She was proven horribly wrong and failed to convert him the way she thought she could.

“- she knows more about the falcon and fixes something that Han couldn't
- she is an amazing pilot and mechanic despite being kept as a near-slave”

She spent her whole life as a scavenger, which requires her to know how parts work. She’d have died if she didn’t know those things.

“- she resists Kylo's mind reading thingy”
Jabba the Hutt resisted Luke’s mind powers #JabbaIsAMarySue

“- she force wields a light saber without ever knowing how in the forest”
She’d seen Kylo move things with his mind on a couple occasions so going from that to “can I move a lightsaber” isn’t a big stretch.

“- she defeats (albeit an injured) Kylo despite never having wielded a lightsaber before”
She used the same fighting techniques that she used with her staff at the beginning of the movie.

“- she mind controls Daniel Craig stormtrooper despite never knowing how”
Kylo had just shown her it was possible to get into someone’s head, so she tried it, failed once, then tried again.

“- she can speak Wookie despite never having left Jakku”

We didn’t see the vast majority of her life. It’s not impossible for a Wookiee to go to Jakku.

You also missed the point of the “Death Stars are always near inhabited planets” point. It always moves right up next to the planet it’s about to destroy (Alderaan or Yavin 4), and other planets are likely nearby. It’s kind of important to make sure you’re aimed away from any sort of life or you’re blowing up more than just the Deatn Star. Snoke’s ship was a ways off from the nearest planet so that wasn’t as present of a danger.

“um, yeah at the end of the trilogy it was a cool reveal of an big bad guy, the ultimate Sith. but now... they have 3 NEW POWERS introduced in the middle-movie, fairly casually and throughout? It just seems clumsy.”

I mean not really. It’s not a big deal.

Picking up large objects + living people being able to communicate + the ability to manifest as a ghost

Those were all powers revealed in Empire. WHOA THREE NEW POWERS IN THE MIDDLE MOVIE IS SLOPPY

@Vash

"Yanik...that is not how explosions in space work. Debris will just keep accelerating out because there is no resistance force. Like the only reason this wouldn't happen would be if the debris is vaporized before it travels. Explosions in space are not "easily contained" at all."


the Debris isn't, but the actual FORCE of the blast is. and besides, my point still stand empirically: the unshielded transports weren't affected, and I doubt light-speeding a cruiser through the Death Star would be some special exception.



@TrPrado

"“she couldn't defeat Snoke, but she did predict Kylo would turn on him”

Her prediction was that Kylo Ren would be good. She was proven horribly wrong and failed to convert him the way she thought she could."


no, she only said that he would take her side against Snoke: and she did. but even then, this is on the failure side of the list.




"“- she knows more about the falcon and fixes something that Han couldn't
- she is an amazing pilot and mechanic despite being kept as a near-slave”

She spent her whole life as a scavenger, which requires her to know how parts work. She’d have died if she didn’t know those things."


=/= good pilot whatsoever. furthermore, she knew MORE THAN HAN, who owned the ship for Decades. THAT is the Mary Sue point: in the original Mary Sue fanfiction on the Enterprise, she outlogics Spock, is braver than Kirk, knows something about the Enterprise that Scotty doesn't... she outdoes the old guard in every way.




"“- she resists Kylo's mind reading thingy”
Jabba the Hutt resisted Luke’s mind powers #JabbaIsAMarySue"


Luke is a good guy, he used the light side of the force only. are you saying that Poe is weak minded? because he collapsed against Kylo. Kylo used all of his rage and fury to torture and extract the information. THAT is far different.




"“- she force wields a light saber without ever knowing how in the forest”
She’d seen Kylo move things with his mind on a couple occasions so going from that to “can I move a lightsaber” isn’t a big stretch."


yes but then it's some kind of new thing to her when on the island she feels the force with Luke. the simple fact is it took Luke 2 movies to move a lightsaber with his hand, and 3 movies to do mind tricks on people. she did these ALL in the 1st one, with only a matter of days after LEARNING about the force's existence. Mary. Sue.




"“- she defeats (albeit an injured) Kylo despite never having wielded a lightsaber before”
She used the same fighting techniques that she used with her staff at the beginning of the movie."


as someone who used to do sword fights a LOT... a staff vs a blade is FAR different, and a Lightsaber has no hilt guard, so when parrying you can't let them slip down the blade and strike your hand. the techniques are VERY different. furthermore, the weight balance is sure to be different, oh, and Kylo trained with this for YEARS. Hell, fin had military training, at least some basic boot camp, and he couldn't beat him. but Rey can? MARY. SUE.




"“- she mind controls Daniel Craig stormtrooper despite never knowing how”
Kylo had just shown her it was possible to get into someone’s head, so she tried it, failed once, then tried again."


yes but she SUCCEEDED. Luke knew you could do mind tricks since EARLY in 4 with Obiwan, but it took him until 6 to successfully perform them!!! She picks them up EASILY and with ZERO GUIDANCE. and keep in mind, Luke (and Vader/Anakin) was originally supposed to be one of the most powerful Jedis EVER!




"“- she can speak Wookie despite never having left Jakku”

We didn’t see the vast majority of her life. It’s not impossible for a Wookiee to go to Jakku."

you're missing the point. it's a running gag in Star Wars that only Han can understand Chewie, and they specifically picked her out to understand it perfectly. it ON IT'S OWN isn't that anomalous but altogether, it's SOOOO MUCH. (although in the books, Han was in a prison-type facility for years as a kid with Wookies, which is how he learned it,
and Rey just casually picked up the language form visiting Wookies? REALLY?)



"You also missed the point of the “Death Stars are always near inhabited planets” point. It always moves right up next to the planet it’s about to destroy (Alderaan or Yavin 4), and other planets are likely nearby. It’s kind of important to make sure you’re aimed away from any sort of life or you’re blowing up more than just the Deatn Star. Snoke’s ship was a ways off from the nearest planet so that wasn’t as present of a danger."

I don't understand this. are you afraid they'll shoot THROUGH the Death Star and HIT another planet? because that's unlikely given the infinite directions of space, but also the Death Star isn't RIGHT NEXT TO the planet, it had to wait for Yavin 4 to come into orbit from behind the planet. Besides, as I said, the UNSHIELDED transports that were close to it, as well as the Star Destroyers DIRECTLY NEXT TO IT were fairly unaffected by the blast... so I'm calling bullshit on this reasoning

@TrPrado

“"um, yeah at the end of the trilogy it was a cool reveal of an big bad guy, the ultimate Sith. but now... they have 3 NEW POWERS introduced in the middle-movie, fairly casually and throughout? It just seems clumsy.”

I mean not really. It’s not a big deal."


you just MASSIVELY expanded the universe and possibilities for force users... REALLY NOT A BIG DEAL? If they can shoot fire out of their mouth next movie will you look past that? I mean seriously, how is it that no other Jedi or Sith in the past EVER SHOWED ANY SIGNS OF DOING ANYTHING LIKE THIS???




"Picking up large objects + living people being able to communicate + the ability to manifest as a ghost

Those were all powers revealed in Empire. WHOA THREE NEW POWERS IN THE MIDDLE MOVIE IS SLOPPY"



YOU GOT THE THREE POWERS WRONG OMFG PRADO

1. HOLOGRAMS
2. LIGHTNING BLAST AFTER DEATH
3. BRIDING TWO PEOPLE'S MINDS


NONE OF THOSE WERE IN EMPIRE EXCEPT KIND OF 3. and 3 was between two related people... not Snoke connecting two unrelated people! Plus, how did he bridge Rey's mind, despite having NO IDEA WHERE SHE WAS?????

and the lightning blast after death... how come the ghosts never did ANYTHING ELSE TO HELP EVER THEN? even if Yoda were only channeling the storm, they could have showed up in 6 and helped Luke and not had to rely off of Vader to stop the emperor! but all Obiwan does is talk to him and that's it! Now you can control stuff?

Holograms is also just out of nowhere, and I find it funny that you didn't even mention it. what a random thing to make up... and how did Luke know where to go anyways? and if he had stopped being a hologram a little bit earlier would he have lived? did the force just take too much energy out of him? it's all new stuff

and it ALL got added into this one movie.

that's a shit ton Prado don't even lie

either Rey and Ren ARE related and the movie just took another MASSIVE coincidence detour, or they're NOT related and you have another super power thrown at us.

take your pick

"the Debris isn't, but the actual FORCE of the blast is. and besides, my point still stand empirically: the unshielded transports weren't affected, and I doubt light-speeding a cruiser through the Death Star would be some special exception."

It is true that there is no pressure wave in space. But there is still going to be debris the size of asteroids heading towards the planets nearby. Honestly I'm feeling blowing up the Death Star was far more dangerous than portrayed on screen.

Also like, why would the rebellion risk an entire giant ship full of people when they might not even hit the center of the death star or cause the catastrophic failure needed. The light speed jump was an act of desperation, not an encouraged tactic.