Indeed he is

I have never found a taker on the Key Lepanto except in one RL game.

Same with my other favorite opening Gambit, the RT Sev-Con Shuffle. I haven't found any takers on trying that on this site.

Meh, I preffer BWL followed by Key in 02...

I too have only had anyone agree to the Key in a FtF game. I also have never ever played with a Russian who would agree to a Black Sea DMZ

Fuck I lost my typed up post. Oh well.

The idea is kinda like the Blue Water Lepanto, except instead of taking Tunisia and trying (and failing) to be sneaky about the BW, you just abandon all pretense of secrecy and move ION -> EMS in A01, then convoy an Italian army to Syria in S02 and Tunisia in A02.

The main problem with this plan is getting Italy to go along with it. Most people would think you were crazy to propose not getting a build turn 1 for a better position. I think this a maneuver more suited for FtF rather than against anons online

So no Austrian fleet in Ion by A1901? 'Cause that would be gutsy!

Well the whole point was that this only works in the same conditions that a Key or BW might work. I wouldn't go for any of those three options. I'm just throwing it out there as a gutsy alternative to ideas like those for particularly adventurous Italian-Austrian combos.

DILK: I think italy would still gain the build from serbia.

Yes an Austrian Fleet in Ion in A01

He proposes:
Italy: Rom-Apu, Naple-Ion
Austria: Tri-Alb
Thus far everything looks normal, but then
Italy: ION-EMS!
Austria:Alb-ION!
Leading to a convoy to Syria in the spring of 02

Well, of course, the fleet would have to be there already to make the convoy in S02. Silly me!

It might work in a live game out of sheer surprise.

It also mitigates the #1 trust issue with the Key: namely, Austria letting his pants down and Italy being able to be a weasel about it. This way, Italy also depants.

Wouldn't France jump for the open Tunisia in '02?

But they are not simultaneously depantsed so not much utility there! :-P

Spring '01 Austria is horribly exposed to a stab. Then if it goes as PE suggests it morphs into a situation where Italy is horribly exposed.

France could not get Tun in 02 unless they had moved Brest to MAO to Spain (SC)

It is also to be assumed this is in a press game, and France has been persuaded to look elsewhere

Possibly but not necessarily. One of the key aspects is doing proper Diplomacy to keep France away. This is a similar risk in some forms of the Key... by no means is this a general opening strategy, this requires some specific circumstances (no WT, really no E-F alliance I think; pliable A-I; and some degree of confusion between R-T on the first turn to keep Turkey from moving the fleet to Con in S01).

hmm...
goldfinger is right, pretty expectable, but then i still like it, hell, maybe i'll give it a try once :)

The important thing here is that up until A01 resolution, it does look totally normal. In that respect it's actually a LOT safer than the Blue Water, imo. BW has added secrecy IF you can sell the A-I fake war in 1901, but A-I wars can really tempt Juggernauts. Here, while A-I look Lepanto-y the whole way, it's still relatively standard stuff to start and R-T don't necessarily need to feel worried.

Once A01 resolves, of course, it's a different matter.

...but then again I just noticed a big problem with it. hurp durp

That problem, of course, being that Turkey will always have a build and a unit next to Smyrna. Build a unit in Smyrna, cover Syria and Smyrna in S02, gg.

Never mind guys it was good while it lasted

Maybe go Aegean instead of EMED?

Alternatively,

Spring 1902:
Austria convoys Italy to Syria, Vienna to Tyrolia supported by Trieste (!).

Fall 1902:
Ionian Sea to Naples, Tyrolia to Venice supported by Trieste.

Ouch.

Ouch indeed. Although the Lepanto could be a ruse and Austria could support EMS to Aegean in Spring 01

02*

what I think would be cool is an Italy in Munich at the end of 1901.

Imagine a: Bud-Gal sb Vie, Ven-Tyr, Rom-Ven
Gal-Sil, Vie-Boh, Tyr-Mun, Ven-Tyr

4 armies in Germany at the end of 1901...

That would be really cool in the (unfortunately not too improbable) scenario that Russia and Turkey go into CD right at the start of the game.

I don't always play Italy in gunboats, but when I do, I aim for Munich in 1901.

If I ever take Munich as Italy in A01 it's to do this:

S02 (built F Rom/Nap):
A Mun -> Bur
A Ven/Tyl -> Pie
F Rom -> Tus
F Nap -> TYS
F Tun -> NAf

You probably end up losing a unit, but if you can get Marseilles/Paris in A02, lulz ensues. Best done in full press with German cooperation so you don't lose the unit...

You don't need secrecy with BWL, the opening to ADR instead of Alb is useless since Austrian fleet in ION in 01 is a give-away anyway. With BWL, A-I has one more build at the expense of one but you still to have to outguess Turkey in Syria/Smyrna in both openings.

@LakersFan—I've done "the RT Sev-Con Shuffle" almost every time I've played R or T on this site. I first heard of it as the Black Sea Exchange, though. It's a great opening.

@Pres. Eden: just about what I did once. Pity the game had to be canceled. It was hilarious. The only good thing of playing Italy in a gunboat is that you can get away with very crazy stuff: you have nothing to lose!

@MKE Charlie Glad to know someone is familiar with it. I don't think there's a stronger opening in the south for a Juggernaut alliance, personally.

Why not go to AEG instead of EMS? I would think that's a much more valuable province.

@"HURRBUTEDENWHATABOUTSTABDURR":
no shit they can stab. the idea is that there's a lot of trust from the get-go... I wouldn't do this or expect it in a high-class game, doesn't mean it's not any less viable than the Key or BW

@cteno4:
yeah, I'm realizing AES is the only really viable place for this, and since Turkey likely won't have fleets in Con/Smy after W01, it would work...

In reference to taking Munich as Italy, the best way to do it is in a F/I alliance with France supporting PAR-BUR, and VEN-TYR in Spr 01 into TYR-MUN supported by BUR in Fall. This gives France a shield against R/T in the south while also murdering Germany as a threat. The advantage to Italy is two builds without hurting Austria, or fighting France. The biggest concern here would be England in EC in Spr 01, or Austria jumping Italy from the start.

I see how it is, PE.

"That would be really cool in the (unfortunately not too improbable) scenario that Russia and Turkey go into CD right at the start of the game."
Or a Turkey fighting a Russia...

"I don't always play Italy in gunboats, but when I do, I aim for Munich in 1901."
You should have posted this instead:
http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/36h0jd/

love you SD

Maybe get Italy a build in 1901 with Ven-Tri. Ven-Tri in combination with Ion-Eas is ambiguous. Could even be a build apiece if T doesn't contest Ser-Gre, Bud-Ser (DMZ in Gal). Or you could vary it with A01 Ser S Alb-Gre, Ven-Tri; S02 Eas S Gre-Aeg, Tri-Alb.

I guess that is taking the "ultimate trust" bit to its logical end. I would as Austria be very worried about assuming non-contest of Greece by Turkey *and* DMZ in Galicia just to get both of us a build. *shrug*

dmz in Galicia is definitely worrisome, but you could likely get a non contest in Greece by indicating that Serbia will be supporting Albania and that Budapest will support Bulgaria to Romania. It risks pissing off Russia if Turkey decides to tell him, but also leaves Turkey without a friend, Italy and Austria each get a build, and there's a fleet in EMS or Aeg at the end of 01.