That seems a rather skimpy thing upon which to pin a legacy: hey, he fired a bunch of people.

Yeah, it was a joke.

An evasive one, admittedly. I like Reagan for the reason most conservatives like him, and the reason most people of the time he liked him. We could have a big argument here about his stance toward Communism, star wars, his role in the fall of the Soviet Union, whether he did or didn't save the American economy, the Supreme Court justices he appointed, and the fact that he permanently changed economic dialog in American politics, permanently ending the arguments of 1970s liberals.

The thing is, I know your stand on those things, and that you find him appalling. I know you'd argue your case, and even argue it well. You'd point to some of his genuine failures, and there would be statistics that plainly make him look bad, and other statistics that are ambivalent that you'd try to argue make him look bad when looked at right. There are statistics that plainly make him look good, and then the ones that I'd try to argue make him look good when looked at right. You'd try to deny even his obvious successes, most likely, though maybe you'd be fair enough not to (I don't know).

At the end of the discussion -- which we've both had before -- we'd both believe the same thing about Reagan: I, that he was one of the greatest of American Presidents, and its most recent truly epoch-making one; you that he was something of a disaster.

And the thing is, I just don't have time for the discussion tonight. I answered a simple question simply. Your follow-up question is a good one, but I just don't have time. Feel free though to say why you think my choice is a bad one. I won't object.

Aw, that's no fun. Anyway, to me the lasting symbol of the Reagan presidency was that he chose to make his first speech after nomination in 1980 by going to Philadelphia, Mississippi, and stating "I believe in state's rights." I don't think someone can make that statement, in that place, 16 years after civil rights workers were murdered there for daring to attempt to help black people vote, without racist intent.

I do indeed pay income taxes, but I cling to the idea that politicians serve us, not the other way around.

Jimmy Carter, humble? He's the most self-righteous man I've ever been exposed to. And moral? The man who has preferred the terrorists over the Jews on every occasion over the past 40 years?

No, he has preferred the Palestinian people. You Zionist think all Palestinians are terrorists and there in lies the rub. If you could accept that there are peace loving Palestinians and not all of them are political and religious extremists, there might be a chance for peace. But all of Israel's ruling powers and the Zionists around the world seem to think all of Palestine wants war and that simply isn't true.

If you are talking about while in the womb, as Draugnar did, you must add Harold Holt to my list, who famously disappeared while swimming. My mum went into labour while they were still searching for him, but 'Blackjack' McEwen was sworn in to replace him by the time of my birth.

@ SYnapse: are you saying the Pope exercises some form of sovereignty or government over you?

HW Bush
Clinton (first I remember)
W Bush
Obama (first I voted for)

I think everyone would generally agree of the above listed, Clinton was the best. The disagreement may come from my thought that W is by far worse than Obama or HW

Monarchs:
Elizabeth II Windsor (94-98, 04-13)
Canadas head of state, but she doesn't have any real power.

Prime Minister/President
Jean Chretien: 94-98
Great prime minister, and despite being a liberal, he was truly a conservative. Under his rule we saw the largest reduction in government spending in history. He slashed government spending by 20% in his first year, and posted balanced budgets and surpluses every year since. He also destroyed the liberal party during an attempt to prevent Paul Martin from becoming Prime Minister, which has made things much easier for my man Steven Harper.
Benjamin Mkapa: 98-04
I had no interest in politics when I was 9, and have no desire to learn anything about politics in Tanzania, so I can't tell you much about him.
Paul Martin: 04-06
Briefly head of government, served in a minority so not much happened. He continued the streak of surpluses for Canada's government.
Steven Harper: 06-13
Current head of government, and recent won a majority government. He ended Canada's streak of surpluses, when he enacted bailouts and tax cuts in 2008. He was won of our better prime ministers, though Chretien was far better.

He has been rather controversial has he is increasingly succeeding in taking steps to form a dictatorship, with a brief exception in 2012 when the party almost went to civil war over abortions, he has had strict and safe control over the party. Half the members of the senate are firmly in his pocket and will vote whatever he wants them to vote. He performs everything in secret, and has had the occasional scandal. In 2011 he won a majority government which means he now has almost absolute power in Canada.

Premier:
Bob Rae: 94-95
Terrible and socialist. Ontario is a flaming red province, that has only once in the last 60 years gone blue in a federal election. However Rob Rae was such a left wing failure, it ushered in an uber conservative like Mike Harris at the end of his first term.
Mike Harris: 95-98
Most controversial premier ever. Everyone either loves him or hates him. He absolutely slaughtered public education in Ontario, and was a flaming conservative. I personally like what I have heard about him, but to be honest I don't know that much, beyond what he did to public education in Ontario.
Dalton McGuinty: 04-13
I hated the man. His worst accomplishment was that he doubled Ontario's debt. Ontarios debt is only 100 billion lower then the Federal governments debt and her deficit is higher. Ontario may be our biggest province, but its only 1/4 of Canada's population. He also raised minimum wage and implemented the HST, two policies that I don't approve of.
Kathleen Wynne: 13
The first openly gay lesbian ever elected to public office in Canada. She became our premier 2 months ago, so there isn't much I can say.

Overall I would have to say:
Best Premier: Harris
Worst Premier: Rae

Best Prime Minister: Jean Chretien
Worst Prime Minister: Steven Harper
This was a tough category, not because there were so many bad choices, but because I only had 2 to chose from, Harper and Martin, and I am fans of both Harper and Martin. I'm going to put Harper down as worse because of many of the corruption scandals of the last 3 years, but it doesn't mean I don't like Harper. Canada has had a good run of Prime Ministers over the last 20 years, and I hope it continues into the foreseeable future.

"Which one is the socialist and which is the warmonger?"
+1

@nudge No, but if there are Catholics on webdip, they should certainly acknowledge the Pope on their list of rulers.

@Draug, the leaders of the Palestinians have been thugs and terrorists, and he still prefers them to the democratically elected leaders of Israel. That is what I mean.

not a single person nor a single authoritarian entity

Draug is kind of right, in that not all Palestinians are terrorists. But when one of your two political camps is Hamas, it's something to at least have some concern about.

I have always wondered how a Catholic, such as JFK, can be the President of a sovereign country, when he is beholden to the sovereign of a different country (the Pope). Does this imply a certain amount of vassalage or suzerainty?

Draug, while I'll happily shit on everything Israel, you so have a misconception of 'Zionism'.

There are many flavours of it in Israel an abroad. Not all Zionists are right wing thugs. Some truly do dispise Israel's racist policies and care about the plight of the Palestinians.

It's not always an us or them or a black and white issue. There is a large, large portion of Zionists who both support a Jewish state and despise the current one.

Of course, I still think they're misguided but I just thought to try correct you on the issue.

And, to the topic, as I think has been said, the best leader I've had was likely Chretien.

@ nudge

The system relies upon the Pope not trying to interfere in the rule of foriegn nations. When he avoids interference (as in recent history) there is no problem. When he does interfere (as happened a great deal a few hundred years back) shit happens, and even the most dedicated Catholics, such as Henry VIII, are torn between national duty and faith.

Since achieving voting age

Blair
Brown
Cameron

Cameron has been by far the best. Brown seemed a decent man but lacked ability. Blair had a lot of ability, but very little decency.

Well, I' from Poland so all are politics is based in a limbo between Berlusconi style and Turkmenistan. In the past decade I've been ruled by:
- Socialists - post-communists, totally corrupted, we've been hearing about bribes every single day, President Kwaśniewski, prime ministers Miller and Belka
- Conservatists - Kaczyński brothers, practically autoritarian ruling, controling all public television, e.g. firing doctors because they have been colaborating with communists 40 years ago (under a threat of death to their families). Jarosław Kaczyński lost as a prime minister after 2 years, Lech Kaczyński was a president but died in plane crash exactly 3 years ago.
- Donald Tusk and Civil Platform - populists, they marely do anything not to mess with any strata etc., but still, best goverment Poland had so far after the '90 (and Balcerowicz <3)

Good my English is so Polish when I try to write something meaningful : D are=our

@dipplayer2004

I don't really think there's any way someone approaching the issue fairly can call the elected Palestinian leaders thugs and terrorists and not extend the same label to at least Netanyahu and Sharon amongst recent Israeli PMs.

Presidents:
1. Carter - my parents loved him, but I was four, so I remember nothing
2. Reagan - my parents loathed him, so I did too, but eventually I became a Republican so I wondered if he was so bad. Because I didn't have the experience of being under his spell when he was president I'm a rare Republican who doesn't think he was all that great. The out-of-control military spending and the Iran-Contra affair *should* be pretty big black marks for fiscal conservatives and/or libertarians, and I am a libertarian leaning fellow.
3. George HW Bush - the bran flakes of presidents. Probably good for you, but not terribly exciting.
4. Clinton - I voted for Clinton my first time to the polls. In retrospect I think he was a loathesome sexual predator, the type that perpetuate rape culture in America, and I can't imagine why the so-called pro-women party nominated him twice, but hey, it's a wacky world. But, like Reagan, he made people feel pretty good about how things were going, and once he had to work with Gingrich things went pretty well.
5. George W. Bush - let me just say I think history will be much kinder to W than many of you expect. He'll never be listed as a good or even great president - probably tragic would be more like it. He had some great, bold ideas, but he threw them away by spending all his political capital on an ill-advised neo-con adventure in Iraq. His Republican congress also threw him under the bus on a lot of things by failing to live up to their fiscal conservative values.
6. Obama - I mostly think he's an incompetent leader. To the degree that he couldn't lead a bi-partisan group of Senators off a well-lit football field. Divisive, snarky, insular - these are not characteristics of a leader.

Dictators:
1. Mobutu Sese Seko - He was pretty mellow by the time I was in Zaire. The nation was well-subdued so there weren't mass arrests, disappearances, massacres, etc. He just hung out in his palaces, expanding his 5 billion net worth, and letting the economy slowly grind into the dirt. Terrible leader, but points for the cool leopard skin hat.

My mom and dad? lol

Big +1 for Bob Genghiskhan! Hey I got to use his name as a post and it was actually not a meme!

Anyhow, I was very clear in saying Israeli leadership view all of Palestine as terrorist. The average Israeli citizen may or may not and any given citizen may or may not. And the "Zionist around the world" comment was more referring to the extremists like those idiot in-laws of mine who think Israel can do no wrong and that all Palestinians are missile launching, gun toting lunatics.