With a few days to think about things, and after reading this thread as things get posted, I have fine tuned my view a bit.

I am strongly in favor of Agent K being reinstated given the following two conditions:

1. Agent K's new screen name needs to clearly associate him with Agent K, even if it is merely Agent J (or some other such thing he approves of), *and* it needs to be made clear on his profile that he was previously banned. Personally, I seldom check out people's profiles and past games, so some sort of hint in the screen name is critical for me, since I still don't plan to play him in a game, but, that being said, it might be interesting as well, so we'll see.

2. Agent K should be banned from GR (Alderian can flag the new Agent K as banned as far as GR is concerned, which should easily accomplish this). Getting a high GR was one of the reasons Agent K and all his friends were cheating in the first place, to catch up to Bearnstien's GR. Agent K made a mockery of GR with his inflated rating and cheating, so if he is allowed back, he should at the very least be stripped of this privilege, which will also at least be some sort of deterrent to other would be cheaters (who also value GR so much they cheat to inflate their true GR), that even if one day they come back like Agent K, they won't keep all of the perks this site has to offer.

As a side note, personally, I find it difficult to forgive Agent K, as it is just so easy not to forgive... On the Meyers Briggs, I am 100% Judging ("Remember, in type language, judging means 'preferring to make decisions;' it does not mean 'judgmental' in the sense of constantly making negative evaluations about people and events."), so all this grey area of should someone be allowed back or not makes my skin crawl a bit. That being said, this is not my website, it belongs to Kestas, and it is *very* clear to me that Kestas wants to be extremely inclusive and forgiving with such things as handing out bans, so it makes sense to me that he would at least want to try out letting a banned player back. It makes me a bit nervous that this is setting a precedent for other banned players to be allowed back, but again, that says more about my 100% Judging personality than about how I think Kestas should run this site to be true to himself. Even if Agent K comes back and all goes well, Kestas and/or the mods may determine it's too much work, so even if it appears a precedent is being set, they have final say on if they terminate the possibility of unbanning players, so that isn't really a big deal now that I think it through a bit more.

SO, after typing all that out, and out of a tremendous amount of respect for Kestas, if Agent K is allowed back, I challenge Agent K to a non-anon game. I propose the game be co-hosted by Agent K, so that he and I can both decide who will be allowed to join (so this will all need to be okayed by Agent K, of course), but clearly uclabb will have my first nod since he so clearly is open to playing quality competition (such as Agent K) regardless of circumstances. If anyone else is interested in joining Agent K and myself in a non-anon game, feel free to PM me and I will share the list with Agent K if/when he comes back, and Agent K will be allowed to decide if he's interested in the idea or not.

PS - For the record, Draugnar will get my second nod. That being said, maybe not.

@jmo, sorry I'm new here (and not an agent k or SG alter-acount :-/) but can you explain to me your, and the other mods, reasoning about bringing him back after he cheated, was warned, and cheated again and was banned? I voted "NO" because cheating and CD'ing (which could be in the service of cheating) ruins my investment of time in a game I play for fun. Surely, part of the mods being able to ID cheater's relies on others bringing the possibility to their attention in the first place. I would find it too time consuming to gather the info on anyone I suspected was cheating in all the games I'm playing and would be wary in any case of invoking Rule 4., seeming to falsely accuse someone of cheating, and I'm "paranoid" enough in the games I play. It would be helpful if you could explain to me the greater good of re-instating a self confessed cheater. Thanks

I really didn't want to get involved in this, but it's actually bothering me quite a lot.

Agent K is a habitual cheater and a manipulator on the grandest of scales. The degree to which he has played this community without even being here is shocking.

Agent K was initially banned by Figle back in 2010 at the direct request of Kestas. He somehow weaseled his way out of that ban and continued cheating FOR TWO YEARS until Zultar and I reopened the case. Agent K cheated for twice as long as he's been banned.

The Mods are incredibly generous with cheaters. Second and Third chances are often given. Agent K, however, has not reformed. He does not enjoy playing Diplomacy; he enjoys playing the webDip community and he is doing an amazing job. He has never told the same story twice to the Mods and has frequently blatantly lied. He was involved in the greatest cheating ring this site has ever seen.

Now, after abusing the site for so long, he's going to get a personal entourage of mods to follow him around? If he can't be trusted to play in an anon game then why is he being let back on the site? What will happen when he inevitably cheats again?

There are plenty of Diplomacy sites. Let Agent K cheat on one of those.

I should note that I'm not saying any of this as a mod. I am retired and merely a concerned member voicing his personal opinion.

WOW. Can I change my vote? Screw him.

Thanks for the information, abge.

I can see that Agent K is a jerk-off, can't wait to see the guy taking some beats on the forum, I feel like hacking him to death with a feather.......

Thanks for the answers JMO. Based on him being allowed to play in anon games, I will be voting no. It's not that I don't trust the mods, because I do, but I think part of his punishment for coming back should be the asterisk that he is a known cheater. As far as I've seen, except for the eye being kept on him, he will be treated as if he is a new player. That simply isn't the case, nor should it be. He committed the ultimate crime on this site, and he should have to carry that cross with him in every game he plays.

That being said, I will accept whatever outcome the mods and the community come to, and I'm willing to play in a non-anon game with him as I don't believe he's so brazen to cheat again. My concern isn't really that he will cheat again, but that he cheated in the first place, and the extent of his cheating does not merit completely absolution in my opinion.

Yes, that is judgey as hell, but to put it in context, I am not the greatest diplomacy player. I love the game, and I love the thrill. Right now I am losing in a game, all 3 of my units are separated from each other, but I will fight on until the end because it is a service to my fellow players as well as myself. Knowing that others have gamed the system just infuriates me tbh.

That being said, I'm under the assumption our alcoholics have a high enough tolerance. That being said, I'll stop :)

Solution - we should split the site in two. Everyone has to choose a side, but then they can convert back and forth when they want to as many times as they like.

People on the Agent K side should be allowed to divorce, whereas those on the original site must only have sex to procreate. We could slag one another off for a millennium and maybe talk about, but never actually achieve, a reconciliation a few centuries down the road. People will talk about the legend and embellish it to suit there own ends.

It could be quite fun for those of us who don't have a religion, to get involved with something mind numbingly boring for a change.

Higher every post in this thread, patizcool. Higher. every. damned. post.

That being said.... god fucking damn it....

With my rant regarding Agent K out of the way, I should add that if the mods are willing to take the time to generously act as Agent K's parole officer, I have the utmost confidence that they will be able to immediately find out and stop him from cheating again, so that should not be a concern of anyone's, should he come back.

@abge - I have followed this thread from the beginning and have read every post. At least once. I knew what he did and am convinced that the mods can take care of him and that he won't cheat here again. That being said :-) , nothing I have read has really made a case against him like what you posted. I am now firmly in the anti-Agent K camp, but will of course abide by his playing here if the mods allow it.

One thing that has not come up (I think) is the deterrent aspect of letting him back. Right now, there are members out there (you know who you are) who have evil in their hearts and coding on their minds. They KNOW how to cheat, but they don't want to suffer the ultimate consequences of getting caught cheating. If they see someone like Agent K, who cheated so blatantly, get let back on, they MAY feel that they can dabble with the dark side themselves. Knowing that banning is permanent keeps this potential problem at bay. That being said (sorry alcoholics), this is only my opinion.

@jim

I think it is well known that I'm a strong supporter of keeping Mod decisions as secret as possible. The new mod team is more open in both their decisions and in their decision making processes. In a lot of ways, that's very good for the community and it is initiative like that that makes me very confident in the current mod team.

There is, of course, the problem you mention of bringing the community up to speed so they can make an informed decision. As the mods said, they spent a very long time looking over the case and were so familiar with it, simply forgot to give a proper back story. A mistake, but certainly an understandable one.

In any case, I believe the community now knows everything the mods know of relevance to the case. With that information, I'd encourage you to give your opinion to be considered as part of the mods final decision.

I think the most important part of Abge's post is: "he's going to get a personal entourage of mods to follow him around"

I think I mentioned this before (i thought it, might have wrote it...) -- it seems ludicrous, knowing that we have cheaters amongst us right now that need to be rooted out, and the occasional issues that arise, that anyone should *willingly* ask the mods to further add to their burden to monitor a known cheat.

I believe some are inclined to do it for *personal* reasons - maybe they like the gut, I don't know - but as mods, they are supposed to be dispassionate, and always looking out for the best of the community. I've never seen a plumber add a leaking pipe to his house, and I don't know why any mod would want to tie himself down to having to constantly monitor a known cheat, instead of serving those who abide by the rules and need their assistance.

I am curious - what would the time commitment be to dedicated monitoring of an individual? Perhaps it's nothing - just checking an automated IP report every now and then? Not sure...

@krellin - I've never seen a plumber add a leaking pipe to his house" +1

@jim

As to your second point, yes that's certainly a concern. However, as we've seen, not everyone is given this chance and he still had to wait a year. So, would-be cheaters are still playing with fire.

@krellin

The mod in-box is actually in the most control as I've ever seen. I do not think this will take away from other mod duties. My concern was more on a personal level, i.e. why would a volunteer want to work longer when they didn't have to. Of course, if the mods are willing to put even more effort into the site, especially to try to rehabilitate a cheater, kudos to them.

jmo already addressed the time consumption of the "mod entourage." He said Agent K will simply go on a list of "regulars." It's a couple pages back and I cannot be bothered at the moment to dig it up, but this has been addressed.

I'd absolutely play in that game with you MM

I'd play in that game any day. Make sure it's accounts we're all familiar with o_O

Honestly, abge said it in full, couldn't say it better.

If Agent K comes back (with a ticker parade and a red carpet leading straight to a game with Mad Marx himself) what will be the new precedent with long term habitual cheaters? Can they all come back if they write enough emails? jmo has said no to Sandgoose and Sargemancher - why not these two potentially? How are they worse than Agent K?
How bad would a player have to be to get a life ban?

I just want to clarify a couple of things. The mod team has a lot of discussions for each big issue before us. It's not jmo or me or any of us who individually decides that person A gets to come back but person B doesn't. We, as a collective, spent over a month debating about Agent K's case, which included discussions about Sandgoose and Sargmacher.

In regards to Sandgoose, we have talked about this over and over, and we have referenced it here as well. I don't know why we keep beating this dead horse over and over. He cheated, he metagamed, he used another account, he tried to come back multiple multiple times, and he was told over and over that if he keeps on insisting that he is above site rules, then he's not welcome back. If anyone still feels that there is something to be done about Sandgoose, please feel free to email Kestas.

I would think that anon, password games would be ok. If someone were to set up a high caliber games where everyone was well known and agent k were to join, it would be a risk free (because the other players would be well known as non cheats) way to gauge his abilities. Otherwise people are just going to gang up on him and people will say "see? He's no good if he doesn't cheat". No one can last long if all of their neighbours attack them at the outset. It doesn't matter how good you are.

"Though let me be clear that making new accounts once banned or certain levels of cheating and conduct with the moderator team during investigations will exclude certain banned members from this opportunity. "

^that would be the difference, to add onto what Zultar said. Sandgoose making multiple accounts since being banned and sarg's unprecedented level of cheating which included no friends and was methodical and planned for years on end. This would be a trial though, if we felt it didn't go well then this would be the last reinstatement.

Plus, an advertised private game where everyone lists their interest on a thread will give people the opportunity to back out if they don't want to play against him, and someone else can substitute. I would be willing to play with him in a game like that.

You have to draw the line somewhere and he crossed it, repeatedly, after being warned several times. I don't care that he's sorry. I don't care that he asked nicely. He cheated. He cheated deliberately and with malice aforethought. I voted No.

Zultar - Agent K did all of that as well. He was banned came back and continued cheating for years. I don't think Sangoose was any worse than Agent K. IMHO. He certainly wasn't as successful at cheating. I get the impression that some of the current mods did not realise quite how bad Agent K was.
It's all beside the point now as you have made your decision.

I do want to thank everyone for contributing again. It was a very interesting conversation and a lot of good points were made.

I'll address that spyman. When Agent K was banned he didn't send challenges to the mod team to find his new account, he didn't cuss us out, he didn't make half a dozen new accounts over months to try to sneak back, he didn't lie to the community to try to manipulate the mods into letting him back, he didn't try to blame everything on his brother, etc. While his cheating might not have been as severe, Sandgoose was one of if not the worst players to deal with after banning and caused the most work for the moderator team. He will never be allowed back on the site.

We were aware of Agent K's behavior while on the site, what made us consider his case was his behavior after being banned. However many of you made very valid arguments on why cheating on his level should remove him from consideration for reinstatement.

jmo, I guess what that shows is that Agent K really was better at *diplomacy* than Sandgoose. I understand why you are so resolute about Sandgoose then. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.