I'm not sure what your sexuality has to do with being infertile. Are single women not allowed to received fertility treatment?

Are you suggesting that insurance programs should be required to pay for invitro fertilization for same-sex couples? I have, indeed, heard this proposed.

Abge - I don't know that answer to your question. I actually have not stated an opinion here, but was just linking to an article related to a recent discussion topic.

Some people would question whether or not an overburdened health care system should be paying for infertility treatments period, let alone for single and/or homosexual couples.

For single people...do we really, as a society, want to encourage single mothers to have children? Studies would indicate single motherhood is not good for society, generally speaking - so is it a good use of our money?

I'm really not familiar on the subject, thus my questions. I'm not sure I see the problem, though. It's very common for gay couples to chose one partner to have their child. Why does it matter?

@Krellin,
"Some people would question whether or not an overburdened health care system should be paying for infertility treatments period, let alone for single and/or homosexual couples."

Even as a dyed-in-the-wool New England Liberal, I'm among those who question the value of allowing fertility treatments to be covered for anybody. Then again, my wife and I are a CFBC (Child-free by choice) couple, so I may not be entitled to an opinion on the matter.

Jesus was born from a virgin; he can't talk here. Sorry.

@Bo_sox
Was that a swipe at me or someone else?

@hecks - why can't you comment on the matter? I'm so tired of the argument "You haven't directly experience 'x' therefore your opinion doesn't matter"

You pay taxes, don't you? You contribute to the health care system? You live in a society in which the children of unmarried mothers have a far greater chance of becoming a burden on society, from both a financial standpoint and from a legal/criminal standpoint, so your voice is just as important as anyone else's.

I could just as easily argue those not in your position are biased because they want to make sure the hand-out is available, and thus should not be eligible to have an opinion, whereas you are dispassionate on logical in your thoughts.

No, it was a swipe at the screaming preaching people that say "God says.." or "Jesus told me.."

Nobody's done that yet, I'm just covering all the bases...

@abge - why does it matter? It's a financial issue. Everyone generally acknowledges that part of the financial crisis is out country is related to entitlements -- such a nice word, isn't it? "Entitlement" Sounds like when the universe was created, the inherent math of the system dictated that when humans popped in to existence, that all logic decreed that certain money should be provided to them to fulfill certain things. IN truth, and entitlement is just money taken from the group and provided to individuals by the choice of society....no, scratch that...by the choice of bought-and-paid-for politicians.

So...are we going to add another entitlement which is something that is a lifestyle choice issue (not gay marriage...but having children)?]

Sorry....I wish I was 6'3" tall...should I get compensation for growth hormone treatment for that because my desires are being impacted?

What makes people think they have a right to have children, and that in the event they can't, others should have to pay for it, when we can hardly afford the "real" medical treatments and prescription that we are burdened with?

was that a swipe at me? I'm not self-obsessed, it's just that people keep talking about me and it makes me paranoid
what, nobody is talking about me, maybe they hate me, did I mention myself again?

Okay, let me rephrase it. I'm CFBC, so my opinion on this matter is probably not objective.

Personally, I don't see the ability to have kids as a medical necessity. I don't have kids, and my life is ticking along nicely. So why should insurance be required to pay for somebody else, gay, straight, bisexual, married, single, or Martian, to have kids, particularly when the government upholds the right of employers NOT to pay for my wife's birth control, ie my ability not to have kids?

(Yes, yes, I know we reached a half-baked compromise where the birth control is covered but not *technically* paid by the employer. But you see my point.)

@hecks - let me rephrase that: Nobody has an objective opinion. Objectivity is a lie.

If anything, though, you are the most rational on the matter, because you have made a choice and are a living, rational example of how life can go on just fine without kids - i.e. they are not a necessity, and "childlessness" is not a medical condition that needs treatment, otherwise we would be forcing you in to psychological counseling to correct your choice. Since society does not deem you mentally ill...

(...yet)

This is a simple cut-and-dried case of equal access. The important sentence from the article is this one (emphasis added):

"Legislation has been filed that would require group insurance to cover gay and lesbian infertility treatments ***just as they do heterosexual.***"

If the state has already decided that group insurance plans should cover infertility treatments, then they need to cover such treatments equally. The larger question of "Should group insurance plans cover infertility?" is a separate one altogether -- in California, if that question has been answered in the affirmative, then that decision needs to be applied equally to everyone, plain and simple.

I'm so confused... Can a man knock up another man? Can a woman knock up another woman? I could see the coverage fromt he point of view that maybe the women want to have a child using donor sperm and have fertility issues, but the guys? Which one is getting a uterus implanted in them?

@Hecks - You work for a religious organization? Cause that ius the *only* way the employer isn't required to pay for birth control.

@bo_sox - "Jesus was born from a virgin; he can't talk here. Sorry"

Born from a virgin, but still had a father in Joseph. He was not born to a single mom. He was born to two loving parents with onebeing biological and the other being appointed by God the Father to look after him and raise him as his own son.

@Draug,
Yeah, sorry, I meant "my" in the sense of "someone like me". Not literally mine. It's imprecise language but I was just shooting for the broad point.

And hecks, no worries mate. I am in the same boat. No children and now in my late 40s (and my wife in her late 50s and having had a radical hysterectomy), so unless we adopt or God decides to pull an "infertile womb" thing again, we ain't having any.

And I narrowed it down a bit by pointing out that the vast majority of employers *are* forced to pay for it.

Ofc oruse, I actually disagree that they should be forced to pay for a drug or condoms when simple abstinence would suffice.

@Draug,
Understood. I wouldn't be that upset if insurance pulled funding for invitro *and* told my wife and me "No more pill. Go buy yourself some condoms." *Not* having kids is no more medically necessary than having them. They're both lifestyle choices. But it seems like it should be either both or neither.

@Draug - Abstinence?!!?! Good god, man, are you insane? We all know that people are incapable of stopping themselves from having sex!!! You can't expect an American to be responsible for their behavior!! Madness...simply madness...

I haven't had sex in over 3 years. That's why I have a woodshop and smoke pipes and cigars and carve shit and have a nice car and a sailboat and... Things to take my mind off sex.

And hecks, yeah, I agree they shouldn't be forced to cover fertility treatments or birth control. Now, they also shouldn't be banned from it. If an employer wants to promote "family values" by promoting having a family, they should have the option of buying insurance that covers fertility treatments. I knwo mine even offers to help with adoption expenses. Likewise, if an employer of a generally younger crowd wishes to promote promiscuity, they should have that option as well. Fertility and Birth Control is an area where government regulation does *not* belong.

lol Draug...uhhh...if your posts in general are any indication, your mind is not off of sex. At all. Ever.

Not when I'm posting here. Although better of late since moving away from the hot 17 and 18 year old neighbor girls a couple years ago.

I cannot find the thread anymore, but krellin, Draugnar announced some months back that he'd rather plane wood than have sex. He said both of the following, verbatim:

http://i.imgur.com/AkSLB.png
http://i.imgur.com/xCMVV.png

Those are *not* quotes. And please stop posting pictures of my wife and I. go back to characters like the Most interesting Man in the World or something.

What I said was it was I respect my wife too much and even if I didn't, it was an unproductive waste of energy, energy that was better spent working in the woodshop planing wood.

dubm -- You are a ****FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT****

There is webdip fun...and then there is bullshit invasion of privacy crap like you have done.

posting real-life personal shit makes you a complete pervert asshole moron. whatever repect I had for you...gone...

Fucking grow a pair, asshole. If you want to WebDip fight with someone, man up and make your own insults.

*I* can tear any douche bag motherfucker asswipe to shreds with mere insults....and MAKE the fucktard back down, becuase I have the intelligence to fuck with people.

You are an asshole. Grow the fuck up, or I will personally hunt YOU down...I'll send my IT guys after you, and I will find out everything I can about you and post every single piece of info I find out about you on these threads.

Back off, fuckwad, or we will turn a bunch of bored lonely geeks against you.. And yes...I have that power...because these asshole will work off-hours for pizza.

Draug, you're correct that they are not verbatim quotes. The exact quotes are:
"Meh. Sec ain't all it's cracked up to be. I'd much rather be in the workshop crafting a piece of furniture with my own two hands." - threadID=951068, page 2
So, I took liberties at the time I made them to make the text fit. I misrecollected them as verbatim quotes.

The first post I made using this picture didn't seem to phase you. There will be no more posted on my part, at your request.

That is because I figured the first one was a one time only deal. When it became a habit is when I asked it to stop, especially as I own the picture and never signed a release for it's public use. ;-)

But thank you for respecting my wishes there.

And in that same thread I believe is where I called it a waste of energy and mentioned that my wife's frail condition now, 8 years after that picture, make sex impossible for her so I respect her too much to even think of stepping out regardless of if she gave me permission.

dubmdell, enough of the real life pictures

krellin, you will not make threats against other members. Especially not in regards to having people use site data to find someone.

Neither of those is up for debate.

"these asshole will work off-hours for pizza"

I will always remember this quote from the book "First Among Equals"... Never underestimate the value of free food.

And guys, dubm was polite about agreeing not to and I was polite in asking him to stop. No need to get your panties up in a wad. We worked it out like reasonable adults should (which is amazing for this forum) :-)

I'd just like to point out that Draugnar is very sexy.

No, YJ, my wife is the sexy one. I'm the fat-ass in the linen sport coat.

You actually look almost exactly as I had imagined.

As I said before, that is me more than 50 pounds ago and 8 years ago. In fact 8 years ago this week. Funny thing that, we were on a cruise on tax day 2005.