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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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John Viva (157 D)
20 Sep 13 UTC
(+1)
What is the point in "Anonymously + Without chat"?
As far as I understand "Diplomacy" game is all about negotiation. But I see many games here with no chat - what is the point?
65 replies
Open
orathaic (1009 D(B))
14 Sep 13 UTC
Argueing on webdip forums..
Why do we do it? what do we achieve?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTN9Nx8VYtk

Is there a better way to do things?
27 replies
Open
LakersFan (899 D)
17 Sep 13 UTC
Fracking Flood Disaster in Colorado
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/09/15/1238996/-Is-there-a-media-blackout-on-the-fracking-flood-disaster-in-Colorado
17 replies
Open
Triumvir (1193 D)
18 Sep 13 UTC
Back into the swing of things
Coming back to play after 2-years away. Looking to start a new game. Anyone interested in a 1-2 day Classic game? I prefer anonymous PPSC but would play WTA if there was more interest. Who wants in?
17 replies
Open
hecks (164 D)
19 Sep 13 UTC
(+2)
Diplomacy Quotes
Everyone has a quote (literary, historical, movies) that sums up how they play Diplomacy. What's yours?
37 replies
Open
NigeeBaby (100 D(G))
21 Sep 13 UTC
When politics negates your democracy.....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24183135
If your a Saudi princess there are no problems treating black people like shit ...... when human rights abuses are ignored you realize that even democracy has a price
5 replies
Open
Maniac (189 D(B))
20 Sep 13 UTC
(+1)
Good parenting?
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/4-X-one-direction-tickets-sydney-Friday-25th-October-/171129708772

I'm taking bets that this gets withdrawn.
14 replies
Open
goldfinger0303 (3157 DMod)
18 Sep 13 UTC
Subs for The Masters
I need two and then this tournament can be finished. Two players of good quality who will not drop out and will see this finished.
22 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
21 Sep 13 UTC
This Time on Philosophy
This is NOT a thread about religion. No affirming Jesus as divine-ergo-correct, we're just comparing philosophies. If you want to argue the miracles are somehow parabolic--ie, that the Bread/Loaves one demonstrates a tenant of his philosophy-fair game, but no arguing on whether or not he "did it." So let's play the Jeffersonian game and just compare arguably the West's two most important philosophic influences--Socrates or Jesus, who has the better life view?
11 replies
Open
dirge (768 D(B))
19 Sep 13 UTC
Human Rights Watch believes White south africans being murdered should be ignored.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_farm_attacks

Human Rights Watch, a group which respects its own activist credentials, believes that anyone who cares about White Africans (caucasian people who are native to Africa) being raped and murdered is racist.
Putin33 (111 D)
19 Sep 13 UTC
(+3)
No it doesn't.
dirge (768 D(B))
19 Sep 13 UTC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fzRSE_p1Ys
goldfinger0303 (3157 DMod)
19 Sep 13 UTC
(+4)
I missed Putin :)
Draugnar (0 DX)
19 Sep 13 UTC
(+2)
Retrieved from http://www.genocidewatch.org/southafrica.html

South Africa – Official Hate Speech

Stage 5: Polarization

By Genocide Watch -

12 July 2012

The African National Congress has been South Africa’s governing party since the Presidency of Nelson Mandela 17 years ago, following the end of white minority rule and apartheid. In the years under apartheid, hate speech was used by both supporters and opponents of the apartheid system to stir up their followers. When racial tensions in South Africa ran high, the song “Kill the Farmer, Shoot the Boer” was a revolutionary song of the anti-apartheid movement. However, it is an illustration of the long-term impact that such de-humanizing language can have.

After many years when such songs were no longer sung, in 2010, prominent members of the ANC Youth League, in particular Julius Malema, President of the ANC Youth League, openly sang the “Shoot the Boer” song at ANC Youth League rallies. Not only did revival of the song strike fear into the hearts of Boer farmers, but it has actually been sung during attacks on white farmers. It is an incitement to murder white Afrikaner farmers.

Over 3000 white farmers have been murdered since 1994. The South African police have not made investigation and prosecution of these farm murders a priority, dismissing them as crimes by common criminals. The government has disbanded the commando units of white farmers that once protected their farms, and has passed laws to confiscate the farmers’ weapons. Disarmament of a targeted group is one of the surest early warning signs of future genocidal killings.

A recent outbreak of violent farm invasions has led to casualties among white South Africans. The farm invasions are direct results of calls by Julius Malema and his Deputy, Ronald Lamola for whites to give up their land without compensation, or face violence by angry black youths “flooding their farms.”

In response to Julius Malema, the Freedom Front (FF) cited Section 16.2c of the South African Constitution, which restricts freedom of speech rights by excluding as unprotected speech "advocacy of hatred based on race, ethnicity, gender or religion and incitement to cause harm.” The FF contended that Malema’s singing of the “Shoot the Boer” song was hate speech and therefore a human rights violation. Acting Judge of the South Gauteng High Court, Leon Halgryn declared that the song is hate speech, and it is unconstitutional to either utter or sing “dubul’ibhunu” (“shoot the Boer.”) He issued an injunction against Malema, ordering him to no longer sing the song. The phrase is now considered hate speech.

Julius Malema was shortly thereafter removed as President of the ANC Youth League, and ejected from the ANC. However, Malema’s followers have defied the judgment and continue to sing the song. Even

President Jacob Zuma sang “Shoot the Boer” at the ANC Centenary Celebration event in January of 2012. He claimed that its use at the ANC Centenary was not intended as hate speech, but rather to commemorate the struggle against apartheid.

Despite President Zuma’s proclaimed intent, his singing of the song may be contributing to an increasingly hostile environment that threatens the safety of white South Africans. The number of murders of Boer farmers has increased each month in 2012.

For ten years, Genocide Watch has been the only international human rights group willing to declare an Alert about the high murder rate of Boer farmers, perhaps because it is not “politically correct” to defend the rights of people who once supported apartheid. Genocide Watch is opposed to all forms of racism, from whatever the source. The President of Genocide Watch actively supported the anti-apartheid movement in constitutional consultations with the United Democratic Front when he was a Fulbright Professor of Law in Swaziland. He has visited South Africa several times since and will soon visit again.

According to the Genocide Watch 8 stages of Genocide, South Africa remains at stage 5: Polarization.
Putin33 (111 D)
19 Sep 13 UTC
Waiting for any substantiation whatsoever of the claim of the OP of this thread.
Draugnar (0 DX)
19 Sep 13 UTC
Well, HRW didn't say a peep in their 2013 report about south Africa's genocidal attacks against white farmers. Their lack of outrage speaks volumes. I have been looking for a directly attributable quote though and only found others claims to the same effect on the web.
dirge (768 D(B))
19 Sep 13 UTC
putin, i'm just exaggerating and trolling of course. But i do think its a damn shame that some activist groups that claim to address human rights issue chose to ignore this particular problem.
dirge (768 D(B))
19 Sep 13 UTC
and in defense of my drunk trolling, there is no substantiation of HRW motives, but I think we can say their motives are implicit in their actions and lack of action in this case.
Putin33 (111 D)
19 Sep 13 UTC
(+1)
But HRW has not ignored this issue.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/safrica2/
dirge (768 D(B))
19 Sep 13 UTC
Well, yes I regret my tolling. I have to remember not to post whilst drinking. HRW takes a balanced approach to the extremes of violent crime in South Africa. They do a good job of highlighting the problems still existing the SA criminal system that continues to give advantage to the well off and to Whites. This is commendable.

But I think it is fair to say they deftly skirted the problem at hand, namely possibility that White African landowners are being intentionally targeted for murder and such. Maybe it is not systematic to point that we see in Zimbabwe. But there is the perception that this a problem and as Draug pointed out the actions of some members of ANC and government may not be helping.
Draugnar (0 DX)
19 Sep 13 UTC
@Putin - You slam others for papers and reports that are 5 years old then present one that is 12 years old as evidence they care? Since then, 4000 more white South African farmers have been brutally tortured and murdered yet HRW no longer keeps an eye on the problem. Why is that? The 2013 report mentions nothing of SA farming except workers rights and conditions improving (something to praise the white farmers for).
Putin33 (111 D)
19 Sep 13 UTC
There is no reliable information on farm attacks. From where did you get the number 4,000?
Draugnar (0 DX)
19 Sep 13 UTC
Several news reports I watched online from South Afric's TV stations. Go to you tube and you can find several different special reports out of their TV stations that cover the issue.
Putin33 (111 D)
19 Sep 13 UTC
Why isn't it documented? What TV stations? What are the dates of the reports?
Draugnar (0 DX)
19 Sep 13 UTC
A more conservative number of 3000 since 94 is quoted in the report above from genocide watch, but that is still a huge number of murders for less than 20 years. It's about one every 2.5 days.
Draugnar (0 DX)
19 Sep 13 UTC
I'm at work and can't use youtube, my friend, or I would search them for you.
Draugnar (0 DX)
19 Sep 13 UTC
Here is one, I found on the phone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S71PbichSw - Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X38CW6l-em4 - Part 2
Putin33 (111 D)
19 Sep 13 UTC
How did Genocide Watch come up with that number? It doesn't cite any of its sources.
Draugnar (0 DX)
19 Sep 13 UTC
Did you watch the news story I sent? IT has some numbers as well and shows graphic details of just hwo this isn't a matter of murder and robbery but of rape and torture and clearly sending a signal that the White Afrikaner Farmers are, in the murderers eyes, something less than human. It has some macabre parallels with the Nazis and the Jews in the 30s and 40s.
Draugnar (0 DX)
19 Sep 13 UTC
And, by the way, here is President of Genocide Watch Gregory H. Stanton's bio. Please read it and see that this guy knows *way* more about genocide than this entire forum combined and is considered one of the leading experts on the subject by general pretty much the entire world.

http://www.genocidewatch.org/images/Stanton_Bio.doc

I would quote it all, but this forum has chewed people (including me) out for doing that before, so go download the bio and take a read. But of particular interest and note is this one paragraph:

"Since leaving the State Department in 1999 to found Genocide Watch, Stanton has been deeply involved in the U.N.-Cambodian government negotiations that have brought about creation of the Khmer Rouge Tribunal, for which he has drafted internal rules of procedure and evidence. From 1999 to 2000, he also served as Co-Chair of the Washington Working Group for the International Criminal Court."

Says a hell of a lot about his credentials.
Putin33 (111 D)
19 Sep 13 UTC
You got a number - 4,000. From where did you get it? I didn't hear it in this documentary, a documentary's whose credibility I have no way of verifying. Why did you use that number? You wouldn't have used it unless there was some kind of documentary support for it.

I don't see why Mr. Stanton does not cite the independent research his group claims documents these murders. How difficult would it have been to just name the unnamed "independent researchers" or their work?

The group Genocide Watch has three members on its Board of Directors. None of whom are South African. The group is based in Washington. When looking through its long list of advisers, only one is based in South Africa - Susan Cook. I find this peculiar for a group that bills itself as the only human rights organization talking about the South African issue. Going through his (Stanton's) personal list of publications, they all appear polemical in nature. He doesn't do research like HRW, he does policy advocacy.
dirge (768 D(B))
20 Sep 13 UTC
Still the central point remains. Liberal activists prefer to ignore this problem because it doesn't fit their pre conceived ideas of oppression and injustice. HRW has chosen to completely skirt, avoid and ignore the issue.
Putin33 (111 D)
20 Sep 13 UTC
If that were true, then it is unlikely that Fast Track land reform in Zimbabwe would have caused such a hullabaloo, even years after it occurred. It's also unlikely that HRW would have issued a 40-page report slamming fast track and alleging practices similar to the ones you describe in SA. Also, I'd just like to point out that some liberal activists (Samantha Powers) are on the board of advisers for Genocide Watch, who is being given credit for giving the requisite amount of attention to the issue.
Draugnar (0 DX)
20 Sep 13 UTC
@Putin - Can't find the source where I read or heard 4,000. I saw it on my phone but that was long before you asked for the reference. I should have bookmarked it and written an APA reference sheet, I know. But I didn't and I don't have time right now as I am just taking a quick break from my research paper for this week.

Yes, in case you missed it being gone, I am finally going back to finish my degree at 47 years of age.
dirge (768 D(B))
20 Sep 13 UTC
@Putin, when I said "Liberal activists prefer to ignore this problem" I as positing a hypothesis regarding a general cognitive-cultural trend within that population. You counter about "some liberal activist" and naming only a single instance does not negate my initial hypothesis. We would need to set up a controlled study to test it properly.

So what happened to your fancy college logic now putin? huh? You're using lawyer logic now?
Draugnar (0 DX)
20 Sep 13 UTC
"He doesn't do research like HRW, he does policy advocacy. "

It is he who is credited with developing the stages of genocide. He is not just an American policy advisor. He has done work in Russia and Switzerland and was essential to the development of the international genocide court.
Draugnar (0 DX)
20 Sep 13 UTC
Oh, and reasearch doesn't solve problems, it just identifies them. Policy is required to fix the situations.
Putin33 (111 D)
20 Sep 13 UTC
"He has done work in Russia and Switzerland and was essential to the development of the international genocide court."

There is no international genocide court. I remain underwhelmed. Genocide is a political term that never really had any meaning except as victor's justice.



Putin33 (111 D)
20 Sep 13 UTC
"I as positing a hypothesis regarding a general cognitive-cultural trend within that population."

Based on behavior that hasn't been exhibited. You're working backwards from the conclusion that liberals must have done something wrong here and ironically ignoring evidence to the contrary in order to repeat your original claim.
dirge (768 D(B))
21 Sep 13 UTC
That's weak Putin.
dirge (768 D(B))
21 Sep 13 UTC
An anecdote is not evidence to the contrary.
dirge (768 D(B))
21 Sep 13 UTC
The HRW report you cited only supports my original claim (even as drunk as I was)
Emac (0 DX)
21 Sep 13 UTC
Dirge, it seems few international organizations escape the paradigm of their own agenda's. Just because the organizations name is "Human Rights Watch" obviously doesn't mean they are concerned about "all human beings" rights, but instead they focus on those rights they want to emphasize. In the end it damages their own credibility and moves their influence to the margins.
Putin33 (111 D)
21 Sep 13 UTC
Writing a report on the issue you're complaining about is not ignoring, by any definition of the word. You've provided no evidence that this is even an ongoing problem. We're just expected to take your word for it. You're impugning the integrity of an organization based on nothing. You did not reply to my statement about the lengthy report issued on attacks on white farmers in Zimbabwe, which also undermines your insinuation that HRW doesn't care about the victimization of the beneficiaries of white-ruled black majority states.
dirge (768 D(B))
21 Sep 13 UTC
A real test would be something like this:
1) hypothesis: liberal activists are less likely to perceive oppression when the target of oppression does not fit standard models of victimhood (operationally define this including regional, gender, racial, socioeconomic tags)
2) select random sample of self declared liberal activists.
3) divide sample into control and test groups.
4) present each group with vignette describing oppression against a victim. Control group vignette describes victim using standard expected victim related descriptors. Test group is presented with vignette describing victim with non-standard victim descriptors.
5) subjects rate level of oppression against the victim in the vignette.

Just need someone to fund it . . .
dirge (768 D(B))
21 Sep 13 UTC
"ou did not reply to my statement about the lengthy report issued on attacks on white farmers in Zimbabwe, which also undermines your insinuation that HRW doesn't care about the victimization of the beneficiaries of white-ruled black majority states."

You have a point there I will agree with and concede.

"Writing a report on the issue you're complaining about is not ignoring, by any definition of the word."

The report you referenced, as far as I can see (maybe I missed it?) did not address the possibility that White African farmers are being targeted or the possibility that ANC and/or government officials have in any way promoted this even if indirectly by presentation and promotion of cultural memes as seen in youtube video I linked to. Perhaps you can help me understand how the HRW has not ignored this.
dirge (768 D(B))
21 Sep 13 UTC
So to be clear we are talking about South Africa not Zimbabwe.

And Putin, I am not clear how you see Zimbabwe as a "white-ruled" state. Perhaps you have some fancy lawyer talk to explain this. My simple country education tells me Rhodesia no longer exists.
Putin33 (111 D)
21 Sep 13 UTC
"The report you referenced, as far as I can see (maybe I missed it?) did not address the possibility that White African farmers are being targeted"

Yes, it did address it, very explicitly and at considerable length. The conclusion was that the evidence for a coordinated campaign to intimidate white farmers from their lands is lacking. The motive for these attacks appears to overwhelmingly criminal, not political.

"The Motives for "Attacks on Farms and Smallholdings"

Many farm owners and some of the representatives of the agricultural unions believe that the motive behind the violent crime committed against farm owners is explicitly racial or political, a conspiracy aimed at driving white people off commercial farmland. As noted by one senior police officer with responsibilities for rural safety and security, "It is a complicated issue, an emotional issue, and political because of some of the things that have been said about the land belonging to all. Every attack is perceived by the farmers as having a political motive, based on an organized political attempt to dispossess them, though we can't find a shred of proof that that is the case." (380)

To a great extent, the debate over "farm attacks" has been driven by some especially brutal killings, rather than by the overall numbers of murders--though these are certainly high. According to Jack Loggenberg of the Transvaal Agricultural Union, "We say it is not only crime but something else; they way the people are handled, not only killed, but also tortured brutally, and sometimes nothing is stolen. And not doing anything about it gives the impression that this is acceptable. It could be organized, but we don't have the facts. We find that in farm murders a lot of research is done, in 100 percent of cases there is prior reconnaissance and then there is extreme violence used. This is planned, very organized, a sweeper involved in removing evidence. It is usually outsiders; often the farmworkers try to stop them and they are also killed. If it is to do with bad relations with farmworkers we can do something about it, but this is more worrying, there is nothing leading up to the attacks." (381) (Others who have investigated farm killings, however, note rather that in many cases "their hallmark is extreme amateurishness," with evidence frequently left at the scene. (382)) In May 2000, Agri-SA, the Agricultural Employers Association, and the Transvaal Agricultural Union launched a countrywide signature campaign called "Action: Stop Farm Attacks," noting "the attackers do not merely kill the victims, but inflict pain, humiliation and suffering, especially on elderly people. Women and children are not spared." (383) The campaign was endorsed by the Freedom Front and Afrikaner Eenheidsbeweging, two conservative political parties. (384) By November, the petition had gained 372,000 signatures. (385)

Farm owners' organizations have pointed to the campaign against white farmers carried out by APLA during the 1980s and early 1990s, as evidence for the existence of a political movement to drive them off the land. (386) At one point, slogans often heard at PAC and some ANC rallies included "one settler, one bullet," or "kill the boer, kill the farmer." In September 1999, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC) granted amnesty to three APLA cadres convicted for the murder of Sandra Swanepoel and attempted murder of her husband Johannes Swanepoel, farmers near Tzaneen, Northern Province, in 1993. (387) To some, this decision, which under the terms of the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act included a finding that the crime had a political motive, is proof that similar killings today are also part of an organized terror campaign. (388) Alternatively, a correlation is drawn between the TRC hearings themselves and a rise in violent crime against farm owners. (389) Again, the Freedom Front, a right wing political party, picked up on the statement by a soldier from the Lesotho Defense Force, on trial for treason in connection with an alleged attempted coup in 1998, that he had been trained to regard South African "boers" as the enemy, linking it with news of land confiscation in Zimbabwe and the ANC's proposal to reform the law on gun control, as well as "farm attacks" in South Africa. The Freedom Front called for an independent investigation by the African Commission on Human and Peoples' Rights, set up under the African Charter on Human and Peoples' Rights, into "the ANC government's racist approach." (390)

At their most extreme, these views lead to a belief that the government is training former members of MK or APLA to assassinate white farm owners, possibly even under the direction of some shadowy international force. "There's someone very clever behind these blacks telling them what to do. Someone is orchestrating the farm attacks; there's a central place where they are being planned. The government wants land prices to go down, and one way is to make the people on the land want to leave. And the farm attacks are professional, carried out with military planning." (391) The Transvaal Agricultural Union sees "farm attacks" as "ideologically driven; we are rushing into a situation similar to that in Zimbabwe with the pressure on agriculture in general and the transformation regarding land. The intent is to make land reform affordable, and the farm attacks are part of the pressure applied to speed up the process. You must see the total picture. We can't come to another conclusion." (392) TAU admits that it has no evidence for an orchestrated campaign of violence: "At this stage we haven't got it, but there is circumstantial evidence that suggests we must put these attacks in perspective," noting that the 1955 Freedom Charter promises that "the land shall be divided among those who work it." (393) Even those with more moderate views wonder aloud if the unnecessary brutality involved in some killings of farm owners is aimed at driving farmers off the land, in the context where the Department of Land Affairs is not delivering on its promises for redistribution through the use of the law. Similarly, there are numerous rumors of "hit squads" made up of criminal elements in the big cities that can be hired if someone has a problem with a farmer, such as a threatened eviction; while links are seen between violent crime against farm owners and land invasions, drawing parallels with the government-backed take over of white farms in Zimbabwe. In March 2001, the chair of "Action: Stop Farm Attacks" told reporters that six suspects in a "farm attack" case had been found in possession of a video including instruction material on how to carry out a farm attack. It later appeared that there was no substance to these claims. (394)

Some academic writing supports the view that violent crime against farm owners is driven by a desire to intimidate farmers to leave their land, though it relies on media reports, police statistics, and theorization about the impact of apartheid on black South Africans and their world view, rather than on studies of particular cases, interviews with perpetrators, or other empirical evidence. (395)

Several farmers interviewed by Human Rights Watch reported that they had received threats of various types, ranging from anonymous telephone calls to letters warning them to leave their farm or face the consequences. For some, these are an indication of an organized campaign, others see them as isolated threats from the land-hungry. Extracts from one such letter were published in the Helen Suzman Foundation's Briefing magazine:


Dear Mr L,

We write this letter to warn you concerning hiring a part of Mr B's farm. The time now is ripe for the Amachanu tribe to act vigorously to show all the conservative Boers our concern about our ancestors' land which was taken from them forcefully by your nation. We know that you are dealing with livestock to make profit out of them and be able to support your family. Think about the people of B's farm and their livestock. They are still oppressed. We feel that you are part of oppression, but don't be fooled by Mr B. Go away otherwise you will lose....

I'm telling you all your livestock is going to vanish like dew during sunrise. If you listen to that dead living man Z, if the land is under black Z will be the victim of all Mdubuzweni people due to his evil deeds. He has treated his people like animals. He has dehumanised all of them threatening to practice his magic over them Mr L, not because they are afraid of him. He is under your armpits just because he is your spy.

We as the youth of people who were evicted from there from 1879 are united to achieve one goal. Remember Mr L, Z is the most wanted criminal in S.A. who if he might be caught shall be sentenced to life imprisonment.... We want you Mr L to move away from this area. We hope you know that now our chief has been fooled by the government and you (Boers). That land will end up being under black rule like it or not sir we gonna fight sir. I mean underground warfare to destroy everything of farmers who make Mr B benefit from our land....

Mr B is a fool. Go--Go Boers Go. (396)


Even where no conspiracy is seen, the rise in violent crime against farm owners is linked by organized agriculture to the government's land reform policies: "There is no way that you can look at the issue of the murder of farmers without also looking at the whole process of land reform and the expectations created. The statements of senior government officials are not helpful.... We don't say there must not be reform and there must not be legislation, but we also don't know if there is not intimidation in the farm attacks." (397) Senior police officers also believe that comments by politicians relating to land rights, evictions, and assaults against farmworkers may reinforce the view among farm owners that violent crime is political. (398) Agri-SA has protested "hate speech" against farm owners by politicians. (399) Mike de Lange, formerly head of the KwaZulu-Natal Agricultural Union (KWANALU) security desk, who still monitors crime against commercial farms closely commented that, "I don't believe that there is an organized plan to drive farmers off the land; but I do believe that the government knows what is happening and is doing nothing about it. The threats to farmers are being ignored. There is a perception that farmers mistreat their labor and pay too little, so they don't care too much." (400)

From the perspective of many black South Africans the interpretation of violent crime against farm owners is equally clear, but opposite, tending to attribute the "farm attacks" to longstanding ill treatment of farm labor. (401) As one employee of the Department of Land Affairs commented: "The attacks are not politically motivated, in the sense of being organized, but many arise from a culture of barbarism. The taking of the land was done by the gun, and some of the farmers still enjoy today making people suffer just to show their supremacy. Then if something small happens it can lead to brutality in revenge." (402) A union worker put it similarly: "You can't divorce the farm attacks from our history and the fact that farmers refuse to take steps to transform life on farms; they still take it that they are the owners of the universe." (403) A black policeman agreed: "The treatment on farms is not human.... That's why you find attacks on farmers; the attitude of white farmers against black workers causes blacks to retaliate. They still have the attitude that you have no rights." (404) Commenting on reports of a farm owner who forced his workers to share accommodation with pigs, the ANC issued a statement that "it is an open secret that some of the brutal attacks on farmers are revenge attacks by farmworkers who have been brutalized by their employers. It is unfortunate that sometimes it is innocent farmers who pay the price for the actions of their racist colleagues." (405) However, no systematic study has been undertaken that draws any direct correlation between brutality towards farmworkers or evictions of farm residents and attacks on farm owners.

Just as some farm owners and their representatives are convinced that violent attacks against whites living on farms are part of a conspiracy, so farm residents often believe that attempts to organize private security or commando protection for farms are throw-backs to the "third force" of the 1980s and early 1990s, covert action by the previous government to promote violence among black communities and assassinate black leaders. This view is reinforced by the fact that in some areas, among those employed as private security are ex-members of South Africa's more notorious apartheid security units, including the 32 and Koevoet ("Crowbar") battalions deployed in Namibia and Angola. (406)

Contrary to these beliefs, those few more-or-less systematic studies that have been carried out into violent crime against farm owners have found that in the majority of cases violence was used to achieve another purpose rather than for its own sake: "To the extent that the attacks were violent, the violence generally appeared to be tactical and instrumental, rather than gratuitous. While the culprits appeared to have few qualms about injuring or even killing their victims, violence was deployed in the cases studied either to access safes, to leave the victim incapable of signaling for help, or to overpower the victim." (407) There is no substantive evidence for a coordinated campaign of intimidation to drive whites off the land. Moreover, though the majority of victims are white, reflecting property ownership in South Africa, there is clearly no hesitation in killing people of other ethnic groups. Studies carried out or commissioned by the SAPS have repeatedly concluded that the main motive for these crimes is criminal, especially the theft of firearms, cash, and vehicles. (408)




Putin33 (111 D)
21 Sep 13 UTC
"And Putin, I am not clear how you see Zimbabwe as a "white-ruled" state. Perhaps you have some fancy lawyer talk to explain this. My simple country education tells me Rhodesia no longer exists."

Neither is South Africa. I should have entered the qualifier "former white ruled black majority states" for greater clarity. Thanks for helping me clarify.
dirge (768 D(B))
21 Sep 13 UTC
you're welcome


40 replies
Jamiet99uk (808 D)
20 Sep 13 UTC
Banned by a moderator: Duplicate
What is the difference between a "multi" and a "duplicate" ?
20 replies
Open
blankflag (0 DX)
20 Sep 13 UTC
was it all a dream?
at first i thought yeah maybe, but then i was not so sure
4 replies
Open
mapleleaf (0 DX)
17 Sep 13 UTC
(+2)
WASHINGTON NAVY YARD.
Nope. No problem here AT ALL.
BWAAAAAAAAA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.

166 replies
Open
SYnapse (0 DX)
20 Sep 13 UTC
(+1)
Been diagnosed with a painful hernia
After lifting a 25kg book shelf by myself. I'm 23 years old and really thought this only happened with heavy weights/old age. Please, think twice before you lift anything gentlemen.
11 replies
Open
jmo1121109 (3812 D)
20 Sep 13 UTC
Pope says Church must end obsession with gays, contraception, abortion
http://news.yahoo.com/pope-says-church-cannot-obsessed-gays-contraception-abortion-163220900.html

I found this pretty fascinating considering the significant reversal it is from previous church leaders.
8 replies
Open
NigeeBaby (100 D(G))
19 Sep 13 UTC
Have you ever wondered .......
..... why we don't have a better life
16 replies
Open
blankflag (0 DX)
16 Sep 13 UTC
(+1)
9/11
so... for those official theorists i think i can still give you more on 9/11 because this one obviously did have high ranking american official involvement and because it was so significant to the world. and it shows how coverups are possible that involve academia, government and the media working on concert.
125 replies
Open
Fasces349 (0 DX)
16 Sep 13 UTC
Abolish the NSA
Its been a while since I've been this pissed at the actions of the US government. But I'm pretty mad after reading this economist article:
http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21586345-covertly-weakening-security-entire-internet-make-snooping-easier-bad
58 replies
Open
Jamiet99uk (808 D)
17 Sep 13 UTC
American Healthcare
Americans! As someone who has recently had a whole ton of major surgery, I'm very glad I don't live in your country. If you do, and you're wondering why you pay so much money for such a poor healthcare system, watch this:

http://www.upworthy.com/his-first-4-sentences-are-interesting-the-5th-blew-my-mind-and-made-me-a-little-sick-2
94 replies
Open
Emac (0 DX)
18 Sep 13 UTC
Favorite Urban Dictionary Definitions
Urbandictionary.com is a really fun site. Post our favorite definitions from it.
22 replies
Open
redhouse1938 (429 D)
15 Sep 13 UTC
(+1)
After Obama
I've recently criticized Barack Obama rather severely. He deserved every letter of it. The alternative? I've said it before and I'll say it again: Jon Huntsman Jr. That's the guy I really hope (for the US at least) that he'll succeed this absolute clown of a President Obama.
88 replies
Open
mellvins059 (199 D)
19 Sep 13 UTC
Server not Processing Game
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=125826#gamePanel
Everyone is readied and it says server not processing game. Anyone else have this problem?
3 replies
Open
HITLER69 (0 DX)
19 Sep 13 UTC
Fantasy NHL?
anyone playing? First time fantasy player here... threw down $20 to make the season a little more interesting
0 replies
Open
rhoffman (100 D)
19 Sep 13 UTC
cu13
russia
1 reply
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
12 Sep 13 UTC
NFL Week 2: Pick 'em--RGIII vs. Rodgers, Peyton vs. Eli, and SEATTLE vs. SAN FRAN!!!
We begin tonight, the Jets taking on the Patriots, so I'll post this now...in a battle of teams coming off hard Week 1 losses, the Packers and Redskins square off...the Battle of the Manning Brothers is renewed as Peyton and Eli match up...and in the main event...on the kind of game you WANT on Sunday Night Football...it's Kaepernick, Harbaugh and the Niners vs. Wilson, Carroll and the Seahawks! So...PICK 'EM!
56 replies
Open
Yellowjacket (835 D(B))
16 Sep 13 UTC
For those that were recently saying racism is dead in America...
You suck.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/a-lot-of-people-are-very-upset-that-an-indian-american-woman
62 replies
Open
PSMongoose (2384 D)
18 Sep 13 UTC
Preventing Civil Disorders?
A majority of my last few games have had one or more civil disorders. Any ideas about how to prevent them?
7 replies
Open
2ndWhiteLine (2606 D(B))
16 Sep 13 UTC
Our favorite webdipper is back!
I happened to notice the following active player in the cheating link from earlier: userID=26333

Lets all welcome back the best meme/player on this site, Bob Genghiskhan!
4 replies
Open
Yellowjacket (835 D(B))
17 Sep 13 UTC
I can't access my work email
Should I go play with the MR scanner and get something else done, or call it a sign that no work should be done today and spend the whole day on Webdip and youtube?
1 reply
Open
NigeeBaby (100 D(G))
12 Sep 13 UTC
(+2)
Daily Bible Reading
There used to be a thread about daily Bible reading, did it manage to achieve anything or change anyones lives for the better? If not what was the point of doing it? Why would a person read the same book every day?
54 replies
Open
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