"The War on Terror? First, that is a foreign enemy (remember protect the country from enemies foreign and domestic I quoted above?) That isn't police action. that is protecting the entire populace form a foreign enemy. But yes, I think the war on terror is done and we should get the fuck out of Iraq and Afghanistan."

So preventing murder by a foreign agent is okay, but not by a domestic agent? That's REALLY arbitrary.

"PAs far as what I actually said re: the supposed slippery slope. I said they'd keep coming back to the fountain. I didn't say I'd be paying for everything. You twist words to that interpretation cause it suits your needs but it isn't what I said. Epic. Fucking. Fail. Learn to fucking *read* what I write and not interpret and twist to suit your needs. I said they would find *something* else to spend it on and come back for more. I didn't say "everything" nor imply "everything" once in that statement. Fuckingschools don't teach reading comprehension anymore."

Keep coming back to the fountain until you're paying for everything, right?

"If you think you were referring to me, I'm not a Christian."

Clearly not. You are capable of compromise, if only grudgingly so.

"I'm a deist, but Jesus was a man (unless Joseph was actually his father and they were hiding it, he was a bastard child) with some good ideas and some crappy Socialist ideas too and Paul was a seriously flawed individual and the God of the OT is one mean son of a bitch."

Jesus was a socialist? Pass that one on to the Christian right for me, wouldja?

"And I was only arguing against the condoms/pills for all proposal. I said I had no problem with supporting the truly needy.It required no compormise on my part because you came around to what I was supporting all along. Help those in true need and tell the freeloaders to buy their own condoms. Hell, put a tax on every abortion and on every childbirth outside of a marriage/civil union. Tax the father of the child too. Make the only out for that tax be that they enter into a civil union of some sort."

I find that hammering out a compromise wherein the other guy thinks he got the better of me is the best way to go.

"@govenment funding: i guess it would be too much to mandate that every girl be implanted until married (or something extreme like that) obviously the implant may not be great for everyone - i think it can make some women suicidal, cause hormones mess with your emotions... Still imagine the world of difference that would make (or if not marriage, require a single-parenting license before you are allowed remove the implant... Just like a driving license... Imagine all the people moving from poor countries to swell up the population never born..."

I don't think anyone's in favor of mandatory sterilization for all women.

@draug, you said: 'and to provide for the common services and infrastructure like
electricity and security'

Ok so, why the frak would you want amenities paid for by the government? Ok, sure i see why water resources should be managed (cause mismanagment could mean a corporation killing people) on a not for profit basis. Or at least you can argue for water supply infrastructure to be BUILT by the government (as a capital investment) and then rented to corporations... So the government decides how much water will be available, but profits for owning this infrasturcture, and the people who actually use this water can pay a reasonable rate for it (this also encourages conservations of water, and less lawns will be sprayed - i suspect that is tye biggest domestic water use in the US, but whoever CAN afford to live in luxury and own a grass garden, sure, whatever, let them pay for it...)

Ok, but electricity? is having lights necessary? The ability to cook food (you can easily survive without it) air conditioning? No, i can't see any necessities... Sure the economy needs to be able to rely on a reasonably regular electricity supply but why can't that be provided by private interests (or onsite local-renewable, run the individual factories themselves... Or industrial parks running their own power plants...) I think it is only hydro-power which can't be localised - for obvious reasons - but that is pretty much tapped out already.

As for defending against enemies, how about my bggest enemy myself? (i guess tha is fundamental to what we disagree upon...)

@ave: NOT government mandated sterilisation, an implant which slowly releases hormones into the system for three years and prevent pregnancy...

Or the coil, but christ-on-a-bike exploding uterus syndrome isn't at all nice...

@oral I meant them managing infrastructure services. Not providing for free. Management and oversight of utilities does not imply for free. In fact nothing I said beyond providing for the needy and providing national security should be without direct charge to the consumer.

I don't see what the big deal is paying a little extra for birth control for those who can't help themselves (or even within marriage, when having a child would be financially or otherwise impractical). If it will reduce abortions, why not? It isn't even all that expensive. That's low-hanging fruit. Even if you think birth control is immoral, surely it's a trade up from taking a human life?

Will +1

Oh amd Ora... Try a 20 below winter (in F) without heat. There ain't enough wood to heat everyone in Ohio all winter. But then i wasnt talking for free.

If human life is so precious why are there no gun controls, why are people so fat, why are McDonalds so popular. Why does the US have an extremely aggressive foreign policy that leads to the deaths of thousands of children every year by denying access to life-saving items like water purification tablets and basic medicines.
The truth is life is not as precious as you may think, you're believing and recycling some bullshit that does not hold up to cold hard facts.
Also it's not just about the quantity of children but also the quality of life they live. Having children because you can is not a good enough reason in itself to breed.
Anti-abortionists are like nasal hair .........surplus to requirements.

No gun control in the US is because life is precious. Guns don't kill people, people do that with all sorts of instruments including their barehands. But havong a legal gun is good when someone with an illegal gun comes at you. It may save your life or that of your.loved ones. So gun freedom = sanctity of.life preserved through self defense.

Our goal is to maintain the total weight of humanity rather than the number of people. And because we like McDonalds we get fat. And then we have to kill babies. It's so obvious.

And a handgun is good enough for those purposes. You don't need to own 200 different assault rifles.

I agree completely, dnager. Handgun for self defense (only semi auto at most) and hunting rifles/shotguns should be allowed kept and stored on private property. All other explosive based munition weapons should have to be kept at registered, licensed, and inspected gun ranges. But that isn't what Nigee was talking about.

@NigeeBaby: I'm not altogether clear as to why you approve of all (some?) of those things you list? You may not believe in the sanctity of human life, as you say, but surely improving some of them would at least make the world a better place?

Nigee is just a troll don't worry ;)

Nigee is not a troll, but...

"Also it's not just about the quantity of children but also the quality of life they live. Having children because you can is not a good enough reason in itself to breed."

Ask the children. Is there a single child in the entire world that would choose not to have been born?

(Think blues) 'Nigee is a troll. Nigee is a troll, woah baby Nigee is a trollable baby. Yeah Nigee is a troll. Ding ding dang dung. If he's a troll, he's certainly the coolest on here. Ding ding dang duuunng.'

@ Zamj

Probably quite a lot. I expect for those born to parents that neither loved nor wanted them the percentage is probably quite significant. It depends on what you define as a child, of course. This can be a very muddy area, especially in countries like the US which has an age of criminal responsibility of 7 (in most states) and yet you're not considered adult enough to buy a pint until you're 21.

@Oct - did you really mean age of responsibility of 7? I find that hard to believe that more than 25 (the required majority for "most" states say a second grader is responsible criminally. Unless you mean they can be put in JD and have a juvie record. Then, OK, maybe.

And if you did mean 7 (I suspect you did after a google search), then what does that have to do with drinking? It's 10 in the UK and a 10 year old can't hacve a pint either. The two have nothing to do with each other.

Octavious,

"Probably quite a lot. I expect for those born to parents that neither loved nor wanted them the percentage is probably quite significant."

I see. Suicidal children. Probably killing themselves in droves, but we never find out about it.

You're sick. Either that or you'll say anything for the sake of argument. In both cases, no use arguing with you.

I can't sleep at night because of overpopulation. There are simply too many people in the world. What was that? Kill myself and alleviate the pressure? No way! I'm indispensable!!! I was talking about that Indian and African trash who are having too many children.

How dare they? Doesn't that Indian father of 17 understand that his children will loathe life because he can't buy them Lego? Doesn't he see they're better off dead than living without schools and hospitals? In fact, it's a miracle they're still alive, all 1.2 billion of them.

And what about Darwinism? We Westerners invented the thing, and now those bloody Asians and Africans are abusing it. At this rate, they'll overrun the West. It's not fair!!!

STOP THE SAVAGES FROM BREEDING!!!
SAVE THE WEST... I MEAN, HUMANITY!!!

Ahhh... I feel good. Rants are sure healthy.

Oh I have come to this debate a bit late, but...
@ Al Swearingen, you dissapoint me if you were serious with your " only women get this upset about rape" comment
Firstly, as other contributors have suggested, sexual assault is not limited to having females as the only victims, there are male and female victims of sexual assaults.
Due to a number of reasons the most unreported form of sexual assault /rape ( in most countries & societies ) is where a male is the victim.

Secondly, as a generalisation, there is no more conservative creature walking the earth
than a parent, so I would suggest that there are a lot of Fathers who, if their daughter, or son were subjected to a sexual assault / rape, would instinctively have an extremely strong primal reaction of "I want to kill the person who harmed my child in such a devestating way"

I know that if any person harmed any of the women in my family that would be my "primal reaction", because I have been conditioned to see myself as a protector of the women in my family.

I think it is stupid to link Abortion to sexual assault / rape.

I hold the view that a feotus has no legal rights, that it is only at birth when the feotus emerges as a baby that a "citizen with legal rights can be recognised".

I am also "ambivalent" about the view that human life has primacy over all other forms of life. Given the world's human population level, I am starting to think that maybe we should be rethinking that one, perhaps a baby Gorilla, or baby Orangutan is actually more important than a baby Human.
Consider this, there is an insect species that can live without us humans, but that we humans would starve without -- the Honey Bee
So which species is more important --- us or the Honey Bee ???

I think there are a vast number of people who procreate irresponsibly.

I think women should have the right to determine when and under what circumstances they will allow a pregnancy to go full term to birth, and that women have the right to safe Abortion if that is their choice, to terminate a pregnancy.

Sorry chaps, but all we are is a sperm donor, with responsibility to support our women and offspring, but very few rights. If that injures your delicate male egos, then suck it up & get over it !!!

Insults over discussion, is it Zamj?

Very well, you really are a miserable little shit. Not particularly eloquent or imaginative, I admit, but said with feeling.

What feeling? Oh, I see, the same sick feeling that makes you imagine children suicides. I see you in my mind's eye, Octavious, jerking off to fantasies of humanitarian atomic rockets falling on Ethiopia.

MajorMitchell,

"I think there are a vast number of people who procreate irresponsibly."

Yeah, and I'm one of them. Too bad it's not against the law, huh? I think I have about 30 more years of active fucking ahead of me, so I'll make at least fifteen children. They'll all live in utter poverty but they'll love their daddy, I assure you, because I'll love them. If that injures your delicate wimp's ego, suck it up and get over it. Or wait until China conquers the world, then we'll all have one child each.

I'm feeling better and better. I guess that's because I'm discussing with idiots, it's too easy. Nigee, where are you?