Yeah from my perspective France and Italy were working together and there probably would have been some supports for each other. Also I was just kinda ready for the game to end. Austria never readied up so it took forever.

A few thoughts:

- You would have never kept Rumania and likely not Sev either if the game progressed any farther. Those centers are almost impossible to hold over the long run for any country who starts off north of the traditional stalemate line (Germany, France, England) because they can't put a fleet into BLA.

- The west is where things get tricky. Assuming you would need to make up for the loss of Rum and Sev, that means you needed to pick up all of France in addition to Por and Spa for the solo. Seeing as you only have four fleets and the combination of France and Italy have five (including ION) you'd likely not make it into MAO, which means you could never take Spa and Por. The most you could realistically hope for would be to take Bre and Par, which would stretch your armies out in a manner that would jeopardize the security of Munich.

Bottom line - Germany needs fleets to solo, and four isn't going to cut it.

Given that the Irish Sea could be forced to disband, and Brest was tied up supporting Picardy, I think that MAO could have been taken (or, if Brest has prevented this, Germany would have taken Paris and, subsequently, Brest, weakening France to the extent that he was unable to put up much more defence) if you were quick enough to get in before the Ionian Sea came across.

Either way, I would have been tempted to give it a shot.

Entering moves every turn probably would have helped.

@uclabb I only missed one turn do to an unforeseen emergency. Out of my control.

@2WL so would you say a draw was the best choice?

I disagree with 2WL. The east was bound to be lost, yes, but I think had you been very aggressive you would have forced I/A to be very conservative in their moves (constant supported attacks on Bud, Tyr, Vie). The point of these attacks is not to actually gain those centers, but to keep I/A on the defensive and remove the possibility of Serbia from assisting in an attack on Rum. This boils the far east down to a 3 on 3. Still a guessing game, but much more manageable.

Given that you had a build coming I would have been even more tempted to give it a shot. An army could be used to secure the East (and keep Sev) while a fleet would be useful in the West. I would have worked at destroying the Italian fleet in Irish straight away, or the French army in Pic. Brest and Paris would have fallen. I think you could've done it, actually. It all depends upon destroying French units and not allowing him to rebuild. If you're in a situation where there are 3 French SC's and two french units, you have a shot.

As Austria, I was just damned determined to remain alive and of some consequence. Early on in the game, I reached somewhat of a detente with Italy and Russia (IIRC for a short time) and then I got careless. Italy scooped up my undefended centres. The rest of the game really was trying to be that balance point between Germany and Italy. Last turn I got the sense of trying to support Italy into Rumania but there wasn't enough support. I didn't expect to last much longer.

@goldfinger do you think realistically I could have pulled off a solo?

@hamilton good game man. I was surprised you lasted that long. Italy made a good move keeping you as a buffer. Good game !!

I'd have also thought you may have been better off turning on France earlier.

@mendax. I was thinking about it for sure but he hadn't attacked me so i didn't attack him. A mistake I guess

I agree with 2WL, on every level basically.
The only solo chance for germany is to have more fleets, but Spain+Portugal can be defended from the south forever. (see: http://webdipquiz.blogspot.hu/2013/09/2-what-do-berlinmunich-warshawmoscow.html)

Even if Germany gets Brest+Paris+Marseilles, he definitely loses Sev+Rum (as 2WL pointed out) and there's no way to get Spain+Portugal.

Germany should have retreated to Warshaw+Ukr+Moscow, and let italy finish off austria, and make it a 3-way draw.

@rok common lil Austria deserved some of the draw

Well, I have to correct myself, Sevastopol can be held forever (Mosc+Ukr), and to do that galicia must be held from Sil+Warshaw as well.

Still Germany has to get 1 out of Marseilles/Spain/Portugal, which might happen occasionally but in general, it's still impossible. As goldfinger said it was worth giving it a try, as germany might get Brest+Paris faster than losing Rumiania.

Don't be ashamed to play the game till the very end, when your are really and actually stalemated on every corner of the map. Especially in a gunboat, where the lack of communication can cause mistakes between allies.

However I maintain my conclusion that pulling out from Sev+Rum and finishing off Austria was the only viable play here.

@daniyhungre: no one, I mean NO ONE "deserves" a draw. You are either part of it, because you are a crucial part of the defense, or you should be defeated.

Sure, if you believe that a three way draw is inherently better than a four way draw, which I completely disagree with. But each of us gets to value things in life however we want.

Maybe push in the west while giving italy a chance ro take out austria so you could get austria to throw the game rather than allow a draw that didn't include it.

@rok I'm kidding of course. I know this game wasn't perfect on my part but I'm going to use it to grow as a player.

@daniyhungre, that's why I commented on the thread, because it seemed that you want to learn. I'm always glad to help those who want to learn and improve themselves.

Also it's not that easy to win a game. There's a huge gap between being able to reach 17 SCs and to actually win one. These two are completely different skills.

Finishing your game at 16 SCs, as the biggest power on the map, is a very good result in any circumstances. Keep up playing (and learning/asking) and sooner or later these will turn into wins ;)

@rok thanks so much man means a lot! I'll keep playing!

The biggest reason you didn't win this game is because you hit the "draw" button. As others have said, a solo would have been hard, but certainly not impossible. There wasn't a true stalemate, and Italy/France/Austria would have had to coordinate on a few good guesses. In my mind, the only good reasons to draw a game are
- You an play for a win, but you're afraid someone else might win.
- There's no chance of you winning the game or reduce the draw.

Tactically, if I were you I would have retreated from Rumania (a forced disband would suck), and set up the line with Mos/Ukr supporting Sev. Then the real trick would have been to somehow break France's defenses. In a situation like this, one attacking trick is to try to force disbands on the defending side, for example that fleet in Irish sea.

Also, breaking through to Gas is crushing for France. What unit would they have used to defend it? Mar/Bre/Par are occupying home centers, and Mao is important to hold a stalemate line.

@Alderan: I wouldn't mix "life" with "webdip". This is a game, where the objective is to maximize points, but it has nothing to do with life, or what I value in life.

In a game I would always "kill" the weakest, that's really far, far away from my views in real life. And if you conclude anything about me and my values in life based on how I "play", "in a game", "on the internet", then I'm afraid you juped to superficial conclusions early.

On the margin: the idea of hoping austria will throw the game is good, however totally baseless, as Italy can double attack Vienna (hence Austria cannot throw it), also the only way to get Budapest for Germany is to lose Rumania, hence we are back at square 1.

Great discussion, but I still don't see how Germany could solo with a fleet disadvantage. Rumania is gone regardless of the outcome with Sev, and unless the retreats are lucky and he gets an army into Moscow, he's still down a center in the east. And even if Germany does get lucky and break into MAO, he can't take Spa, Por, or Mar.

@2WL, you are right again! ;) BUT!!!

The rea trick, in cases like this, is to "force disband" units, and keep home SCs occupied, so the defending country cannot re-build the unit.

Theoretically, germany disbands Irish and gets Gascony by spring, then he dislodges MAO by Autumn. Then France has a problem defending Spain, as italy cannot retreat to spain (then he loses North Africa/Western med maybe)

So theoretically, this game was far from over. Of course if it were a top20 gunboaters' game then yes, it is not worth playing on but this game wasn't. I think 1 or 2 more phases should have been played to see how Italy/France can organize their defense.

Also Italy might have lost Tyrolia, giving an extra chance for Germany to get Marseilles.

France/Italy only have 4 fleets (5 if you count Ion) in the defense either. If Germany manages to force disband Iri this turn, and take Mao the next (a stretch, but not impossible), Italy would not be in time to put fleets in Spain/Western Med and North Africa, required for a stalemate line.

I'm not saying Germany should expect a solo, I just don't see any reason to draw in this spot. There are winning chances in the next couple of turns. Long term, Italy should establish a stalemate by holding Por+Mar+Spa and taking Rum.

So what you guys are mainly saying is I gave up too early?

I'm assuming that ION would necessarily be involved in the stalemate. But I agree, bas, that Germany should definitely not have drawn because there are just too many unknown variables.

And roka, if this was a top 20 game, it would be much different - Austria would be dead, Germany would have more than four fleets, and this would end with Germany at 17 centers :)

dani, pretty much. Never draw until you've exhausted all possibilities.

What I'm saying, and 2ndWhiteLine would probably agree, is that in a game with top players, Germany would never draw. He would attempt to break through the stalemate at Mao by outguessing F/I. However, in a game with top players, I think France/Italy woudl have enough resources to thwart Germany's plans.

@2WL thank you so much for taking the time to give feedback. It means a lot and I will use what I've learned !

@2WL, yes, if it were a top20, it wouldn't be different, all I said, in a top20 game it would be reasonable to draw at this time, as you can assume F+I will not screw up the defense. But here, looking at Italy's stupid moves (like Con->Ankara, or Pie->Tyr) you might assume he will screw up at the end as well.

@daniyhungre: yes, it was early.

Even in a top 20 game, mistakes can be made, so you would never draw in this situation regardless of the competition. Never assume.

Yeah :), but in a top20 game ionian wouldn't hold, piedmont wouldn't move, and a lot more wouldn't happen at all :)

Also true.

@roka, playing webdip is part of my life and it appears it is part of yours. A small part and not terribly important compared to some other parts. And I'm not equating decisions you make in this game with other decisions you might make in your life. I'm just saying that it is okay for you to value a smaller drawer over a larger draw while I do not. That's all, it isn't any deeper than that.

@alderian, as I understood, you were equating the two
my mistake if that wasn't the case. I play for points, hence I
value a 3-way higher, that's all.

"The rea trick, in cases like this, is to "force disband" units, and keep home SCs occupied, so the defending country cannot re-build the unit."

+1, completely agreed. Forcing disbands is something I don't see too often anymore, despite the fact that forcing a disband can be more valuable then gaining an extra center.

Can someone give an example of a force disband, perhaps one which fits this game? Cognitively, I get it. But to truly understand it, I need a visual. Yes, I am that differentiated child in your classroom that needs to get it another way.

This doesn't fit the game, but it is a textbook example. See my Turkish move in 1903. gameID=12632

Forcing disbands can often completely disintegrate an attack or a defense, as it did there.

Another option you could have pursued would be baiting Italy into taking out Austria. Withdraw all your units back and wait until he does so. If he bit, then he probably wouldn't have been able to hold the line for the next 2-3 turns as he got his builds in place.

But yeah I would have kept hammering away at Tyrolia to keep Piedmont from supporting France and gave it a go.

Here's a good example of forced disbands. Look at this game, around Sping 08 on. I take Europe's home centers, and then I spend the next few years capturing and destroying his units because I know he can't make more no matter how many centers he gets. gameID=63232.

This game though, I wouldn't have drawn, and the NMR hurt you a ton. An extra turn of movements would have given you this game.

Note from Italy: my next turn moves were going to be for Irish Sea to move back to MAO, and for MAO to move to Gascony. Ionian would have moved to Tunis or Tyrrhenian so it could get to the west. The idea was to set up W Med, Gascony, Portugal, and Brest as fleets that could hold MAO. Even if somehow he took Brest, we would still have Portugal and W Med to hold it, plus Gascony.

In the east, my next turn moves would have been Con to Black Sea, Ankara to Armenia (and the next turn, support it in with Black Sea), and eventually I would push Rumania. I had a build coming, which would have been an army, I think, and I probably would have convoyed it to Greece with Ionian before moving Ionian west.

So there's your answer. You could have won (or got a very good shot at it) by moving Yorkshire to Liverpool, Wales to Iri with Nao support and Eng to Mao. The fleet in Iri would bounce in Mao and be forced to disband.

If Italy's move to Gas succeeds, the fleet in Gas is very awkwardly placed, and defending Mao is practically impossible. There's also a chance that France would bounce Italy in Gas.

By the way, in a situation like this the key is to not focus on how many centers you can grab off France short term, but how you can break a potential stalemate line. If you can magically transfer a fleet from North Sea to Western Med or even North Africa in this position, you're completely winning.

France here: Thankful as I am for being included in a draw, I was a bit surprised that Germany voted for it. I agree on the above about Sev/Rum, so I guess the way to solo from where we were was to hope that Brest and Paris would fall before Sev and Rum, and if that did not happen then hope that perhaps France (me) would have been eliminated before the draw. I mean, we were not stuck in a deadlock in the west, you had just broken into the Channel and Burgundy, and my defense for the next move would have been all guesswork.

That being said, I think maybe you would have been better off when it was apparent that Italy was intervening in the west to move to take my centers while I was still weak - in 1907 you sent a unit from Mun - Tyr: If that one would have moved to Bur instead while I was still at 3 units it might have been that you could take Paris and Brest while Italy still only had one fleet sitting around.

Anyhow, these things are always easy to say after a game is over - I think you played it well and would have been a worthy winner if you would have gotten to the 18.