I've tried banning Zultar and myself before, it doesn't work. I could ban bo and the other half of the forum, but it'd be awful quiet around here after.

Bo, let it go. This is not worth your time.

I'm in agreement with Putin and abge here. As someone who taught middle and high school math for 7 years, the only way one really learns is to do the work one's self. There's really no reason to ask for spark notes or rely on other people for formulae. One, it shows how ill-prepared a student is for class, and two, when you don't have the basics down, which include formulae or computational routines in math or basic story structures and facts in English for example, you don't learn as well. Information-processing theory and cognitive theories of learning do a very good job of explaining why this is true.

Long story short, do your own work if you really want to learn. There's not much else at the end of the day.

You wouldn't be the first to try.

I am letting it go, zultar. Of course it's not worth my time. Kindly talk to me privately instead of being a patriarchal douchebag in public, will ya?

grking: How DARE you! Stick with tradition and use CliffNotes.

What if you don't really want to learn, though? I was forced to learn French at school, the sole purpose of which was to be a letter on a certificate. School French is almost entirely useless for speaking to Frenchmen and it has been of zero benefit to me in life. If there were more shortcuts to an easier life in French class I would have happily taken them.

Eh, I disagree Zultar. In high school I varied between reading the literature and not. For example, when the teacher assigned a terrible book that was off the course material because it was their favorite I would intentionally not read, and then be the most active participator in the discussion simply to test my bs'ing ability. Doesn't sound like what grking was doing, but there's still not really a significant problem occasionally blowing off a reading if you already have the information procession part down.

If you don't want to learn, then whatever. That's not really worth noting on, is it?
I think part of the assumption was that caring about one's education is worth talking about, but if you don't care about it or about a particular subject, then do what you want.

For me, a culture of learning is worth the time to talk about.

Honestly, though, it's troubling to read something like "If they didn't do the reading they deserve to be lost." If a student didn't do the reading, it's not necessarily because the student is lazy. There is a shit-load of busy-work in schools and even in universities too. If a student operates slower than the rest, there's not much they can do to keep up. That said, depending on the subject, keenly paying attention to clues (analysis and lectures) in class is often much more useful than CliffNotes or SparkNotes.

+1 JECE

If you have a student who's behind on reading, for whatever reason, I don't understand how it helps to be smug and moralising about it. Said student needs help, not put-downs.

Ah, I might have read only some of Putin's and abge's comments, not all of them. I am in no way condemning the students or putting them down. There are of course reasons why one might not do all the readings or work for the class. I was talking more about the general attitude of learning.

I've read several books that I felt were a poor use of time for literature courses, and a few others, such as Scarlett Letter, I've attempted to read but simply found the book uninteresting. As such I've never actually read SL (in its entirety) despite having written two A-grade essays on it at different points in High School and college. I unashamedly used sparknotes and Wikipedia as points of reference for study and to get the gist of the story so I could look at specific sections of the text without having to slog through the tedious prose of Hawthorne. Likewise I didn't read James Joyce for a course, though I was able to avoid having an essay on it.

Having not ever read nor been assigned to read this Tess novel, I couldn't make a judgment as to whether it merits the sort of skipping that Scarlett Letter does (it actually sounds fairly interesting) but I hardly think we can condemn someone for not having read a book someone else wanted them to read.

"What if you don't really want to learn, though?"

Then enjoy flunking the class. Why should anyone pander to this attitude?

"If a student didn't do the reading, it's not necessarily because the student is lazy. "

Yes it is. You enroll in school to do the work. Do the work. People have this idea that if you pay the tuition you're not entitled to the degree. It's become a glorified vacation.

"here is a shit-load of busy-work in schools and even in universities too. "

Reading is hardly "busy work".

"If you have a student who's behind on reading, for whatever reason, I don't understand how it helps to be smug and moralising about it. Said student needs help, not put-downs."

If they didn't want people to be 'smug and moralizing' then don't post on online forums asking people to do your homework for you. Simple.

"but I hardly think we can condemn someone for not having read a book someone else wanted them to read."

So now students think they're entitled to skip whatever assignments they personally 'feel' are not worth their time?

Fuck, why don't we have them design the syllabus while we're at it. Just eliminate instruction altogether. Everyone thinks they can do a better job anyway.

*entitled to the degree

I assigned 20 pages of reading a week and students still bitched and moaned about it. They have plenty of time to get drunk and watch college football all day though. Sorry my sympathy is non-existent. You were asked to read a 320 page novel. Suck it up.

You enroll in school to get the results - to get a whole bunch of knowledge and a degree. You don't need to do every assignment on time. You don't need to do every assignment at all in order to achieve this.

Some people learn differently.Some people can do 25% of the readings and manage to get As. Some people need to do 120% for the same. Don't judge, Putin, if you don't know the whole story.

Why anyone would study English at the University level is another question entirely.

"Some people learn differently."

You're not talking about learning. You're talking about education as simply an obstacle on the path to a paycheck. Not doing readings but getting As is not learning.

"Don't judge, Putin, if you don't know the whole story. "

The story is always the same. Let's all handhold the lazy people who don't want to do school work and invent all sorts of justifications for them. What's hilarious is the very people who have some kind of monopoly of knowledge over what the so-called "real world" is like are actually telling people to not bother with assignments and cheat their way to an A. Because obviously in the "real world" people put up with not doing work, even if you think the work is useless/pointless/"busy work".

"So now students think they're entitled to skip whatever assignments they personally 'feel' are not worth their time?"
Of course students feel this way, and that's exactly what many students do. Their grades reflect it. If a quick skim of the sparknotes of a novel is enough to get a student a good grade in a course, can anyone expect them NOT to attempt to do so? Reading is disliked so passionately that many students will do whatever they can to minimize the amount they have to do. I'm not saying that every student is right to throw the assigned curricula out the window, but that doesn't mean that every assigned reading is particularly valuable.

"Fuck, why don't we have them design the syllabus while we're at it. Just eliminate instruction altogether. Everyone thinks they can do a better job anyway."
So the syllabus is perfect? Do you somehow think teachers or bureaucrats are immune to pushing personal favorite works onto students even when said works aren't actually good novels? There's plenty of room to debate the educational value of any novel, and if a student can actually challenge the assignment of a novel, I would encourage it over blind obedience to a curriculum which may not have any personal impact on the student.

The only thing I've found that really forcing someone to read a book does is poison the activity of reading for that person.

"I assigned 20 pages of reading a week and students still bitched and moaned about it. They have plenty of time to get drunk and watch college football all day though. Sorry my sympathy is non-existent. You were asked to read a 320 page novel. Suck it up."
I'm not even sure who this is addressed at, but I would only complain about 20 pages of reading a week by saying it wasn't enough.

You can learn a lot more outside of school than you can while in school. And when I referred to doing 25% of the work for As, I mean learning the knowledge. It's different in different fields but I mean some peoplecan learn the same amount from doing 50% of a problem set and 0% of the related readings than people who do do 100% of both.

The classroom, and the tools that Universities use to teach are not cut out for everyone. In fact, they are outdated and it's causing regression in education and therefore the skills and intelligence of adults.

"Reading is disliked so passionately that many students will do whatever they can to minimize the amount they have to do. "

Yes. The point is why should we pander to this?

"but that doesn't mean that every assigned reading is particularly valuable."

If someone didn't do the reading and "is lost" then it was valuable and the person deserves zero accommodation or sympathy for not doing the work.

"So the syllabus is perfect?"

Better than any designed by entitled students who don't want to learn.

"There's plenty of room to debate the educational value of any novel"

If you want to debate the educational value of the novel, then go to the library and quit school.

" I would encourage it over blind obedience to a curriculum which may not have any personal impact on the student. "

What is this nonsense about "personal impact"? Does everything in the world have to revolve around the individual student? Reading anything produces 'personal impact', because you gain more information and are exposed to new ideas. Ça suffit.

"The only thing I've found that really forcing someone to read a book does is poison the activity of reading for that person."

If being assigned a book people don't want to read "poisons" reading then nobody would read anything but facebook and twitter. Sometimes you have to do things you don't want to do.

"You can learn a lot more outside of school than you can while in school."

Then drop out of school and spare the people who want to learn the complaining and self-justifications.

"It's different in different fields but I mean some peoplecan learn the same amount from doing 50% of a problem set and 0% of the related readings than people who do do 100% of both. "

If you're not reading you're not learning. It is not possible to learn without reading. Schools are for reading.

"The classroom, and the tools that Universities use to teach are not cut out for everyone"

I agree. If it's not for you then get out. Don't demand instructors pander to your anti-reading whims.

" In fact, they are outdated and it's causing regression in education and therefore the skills and intelligence of adults."

No, adults are doing that to themselves by killing their attention spans and literacy skills, by refusing to read and texting all day.

Again, I agree with Putin. If you don't do the work for whatever reason (busy, don't care, uninterested), that's fine, but don't expect a good grade.

There were some courses that I just couldn't do all the work in and, guess what, I didn't get an A.* That's just the way life works sometimes.

*There are, of course, classes in which you really can do nothing an still get an A, but I feel that is a different issue than the one at hand.

Putin33:

"Reading is hardly 'busy work'."
But reading isn't graded whereas the other work is, genius. And reading actually is quite often busy work when combined with obligatory annotations or reading questions.

"Yes it is. You enroll in school to do the work. Do the work. People have this idea that if you pay the tuition you're not entitled to the degree. It's become a glorified vacation."
In most public schools I know of, people don't pay tuition. As for higher education, I certainly didn't (intentionally) just finish paying a quarter of a million dollars for a damn reading list I couldn't finish reading out of class in a decade. Instead, I would have much preferred to actually be taught in class by the professor, even if it meant much longer class hours.

And I'll be perfectly honest with you: I'm more than twice as slow at execution and reading than everyone around me. I'll just leave it at that for now since you seem to be pretty insistent that everyone who fails to do a reading is lazy. You're know sounding like krellin or one of the other arch-conservatives here with your ‘no excuses’ rhetoric, right?

You're know --> You'r know you're

Reading is the worst way to learn. Learn by doing.

But again everyone learns differently and you need a degree to do most interesting work

"Reading is the worst way to learn. Learn by doing."

What if you're learning to read?

"But reading isn't graded whereas the other work is, genius."

So what? Reading is the basis of how you are graded for 'other work'. You cannot do the 'other work' without having read the material. And in any case the 'grade' is besides the point. Like I said, people treat education like it's just a gatekeeper for the job they are entitled to, not something that has intrinsic value.

"In most public schools I know of, people don't pay tuition"

I was referring to higher education. But the point remains. People think they're entitled to a degree.

" Instead, I would have much preferred to actually be taught in class by the professor, even if it meant much longer class hours."

It's impossible to 'teach' if there is no expectation that your class will actually bother reading anything, and stare at you like a space alien anytime you open your mouth about the material. It takes that much longer and you learn that much less if reading isn't a big part of the course.

"And I'll be perfectly honest with you: I'm more than twice as slow at execution and reading than everyone around me."

There are plenty of accommodations for that as required in every collegiate syllabus I've ever seen.

"that everyone who fails to do a reading is lazy"

I've had plenty of people who needed extra time do their work just fine. They came in during office hours to go over the material, they took advantage of the extra time they were entitled to for tests, they went the extra mile to learn.

99% of students who don't read are lazy. I have no problem saying that.

" You're know sounding like krellin or one of the other arch-conservatives here with your ‘no excuses’ rhetoric, right?"

Except it's the arch conservatives who are fond of bashing education and academia, think it's a waste of time, want to turn education into an online business, abolish departments, etc.

I come from the socialist tradition that places education as the highest value of all. I make no apologies for that.

"Reading is the worst way to learn. Learn by doing."

Spoken like a good US foreign policy apparatchik. Clearly they haven't read a damn thing about the world and they're doing a bang up job. Too bad that "learning by doing" results in a lot of unnecessary destruction. Ditto civil engineering. Who needs theory? Just build it.

"Reading is the worst way to learn. Learn by doing."

We should make this the motto for all the newbies who want to play diplomacy. Everyone will be thrilled.