http://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/talking-about-cromwell-instead.html#more-105881

Not really about Cromwell ... very much on topic.

HAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously? Does Krellin seriously think euthanasia=abortion. Both should be legal imo.

lol

bumped this purely because the previous extended HAHAHAHA buggered all the columns up on my menu.

:D

I don't think he seriously thinks anything like that, Fasces.

I just think that basically everything krellin doesn't like gets kinda wadded up into a big ball that he then labels LIBERAL.

'Orathaic, euthanasia will only be possible when the minor requests it.'

Thanks. Though this is misleading, it is very similar to what Krelly poo was suggesting...

If the minor requests it AND a doctor signs off on 'terminally ill plus unbearable pain' AND the parents approve, AND the minor understands the consequences of what they are requesting...

I don't see the problem here, it is nothing like the advertised 'Kill any minor who asks' or the 'Parents decide to remove burden' (post-partum abortion)

YJ - you are one of the few that almost gets me....allll-most...

Haha I know you can separate these complex issues in your mind when you want, krellin. You just prefer not to :)

Those that really know me would realize that my schizophrenic persona includes a few lovely chaps, including a fellow named Devil's Advocate, another named Court Jester, among others, all of whom love to stir the pot and watch the monkey's dance, see if they are capable of making logical connections, or likewise if they are capable of properly disputing assertions.

Mostly, though, krellin finds that the monkey's are fond of frothing at the mouth and flinging poo, while pretending to hate such things.

@YJ - In a broad sense, abortion and euthanisia are logically tied to anyone who doesn't sit on a stool throughout the day drooling. Both involve the ending of a life - the only difference being the when and how.

Really? That is the only difference you see between them? I'm not sure I believe you, old chum.

I'm giong to focus on a key phrase here...stay with me, OK?

"broad sense".

To a "pro-life" person making an argument about whether it is right or wrong, either "act" is the ending of a life by other than natural causes, and therefore the difference is when and how.

By the way, I assume that you are making some assumption about my personal views on one or the other issues. I will suggest ahead of time that you are mistaken.

@Krellin, yes, linked but different, one involves preventing the begining of a life, and the other hastening the end. So given that life must end, but doesn't HAVE to begin, we're just developing tech which alters what we are able to choose to do at these endpoints.

This tech also happens to change how we think of these endpoints. In the past it was rather fuzzy, but our technology has allowed a clearer understanding (and now manipulation) of these things. Including IVF, life-support machines, safe abortions and painless euthanasia...

What counts as 'natural causes' depends on how you see nature.

Is it natural to allow a child to die when a bone marrow transplant has a decent chance of curing their leukaemia? ... perhaps.

If you consider humans to be natural, then so is everything humans choose to do (freewill?) It is our nature to manipulate our environment, in a very basic way. (hence not living in caves... as the probably misleading cultural meme goes)

With great power comes great responsibility. Action or inaction in our current state or heightened responsibility may be seen as 'unnatural' but the fact of our abilities changes how we perceive as natural.

Em, i mean natural/moral, i'm not sure these two things are the same...

pls shut up your discussion for 10 minutes ... i am trying to get a gunboat game going
and Diplomacy is what this site is about, or?
thanks everybody

"So given that life must end, but doesn't HAVE to begin,"

Anjd here you are simply playing semantics, since you know the "pro-life" movements accepts the facts that life *begins* upon conception. You know...just like the courts agree when they charge the murderer of a pregnant mother with double homocide...

No, i was not getting into any semantics, I was specifically explaining the differences. two endpoints, like a line... i'm not arguing where life begins or ends, those questions are getting harder to answer the better our understanding of human biology gets and i'm not expert when it comes to biology.

bastards ...

Related issue/debate: the rights of the legal guardians of a child to refuse life-saving medication/treatment for the child due to religious or other reasons. I've struggled with this issue a lot thinking about what's the right way to handle such situations. Thoughts?

Parents are assumed to have the best interest of their child at heart until proven otherwise.

Once proven otherwise the 'natural rights' of a parent do not trump the law of the land. Society has the right&duty to protect children from abusive parents.

/thoughts

Cool story. Did you know that the only difference beetween gay buttsex and straight buttsex is the when and the how? I mean, both involve penetrating a butt. No other difference.

Funny, there are all sorts of arenas in which parents are not assumed to have the child's best interests at heart first and foremost and which the State has decreed mandatory action. I think that assertion is a devious lie.

@YJ - Just curious, how many different ways are there to have buttsex, since you say there is a difference in the how....please elaborate. Diagrams and charts, if possible, will be appreciated.

@Krellin, clearly i can only speak for Ireland, which this year took the big decision of changing the constitution - we voted to alter a clause protecting the family, to instead protect the rights of the child.

So, i'm happy to see this, i may be wrong about elsewhere. What arenas are you talking about? (perhaps my assertion should have been, 'parents should be assumed...')

Well, if they are exactly the same, you would prefer either equally, right? I mean, since there is no difference...