They aren't getting benefits and they pay lots of taxes.

The whole scapegoating of immigrants is really repulsive and hypocritical. I don't see any of the immigrant bashers lining up to do the agricultural work that was made available to them.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/07/07/news/economy/farm_worker_jobs/index.htm

nm on this thread. The other one already devolved into immigration talk ;)

And putin, I've been uninformed now that I've read the articles that have been posted. I am all for amnesty, though, as I've said earlier.
I find it ironic that we are (mostly) a people that came to america due to oppression, but that was 200 years ago and now we shut the borders because that doesn't fly now? A lot of people forget the reasons for the founding of our country.

I'm with FK in that I have no problem granting them citizenship. And I agree that nobody else will do the farm labor. But the fact is, those paying taxes *aren't* the immigrant farm workers as they are paid under the table. And *everyone* receives medical benefits as hospitals are not legally allowed to turn away *anyone* for reasons of immigrant status or ability ot pay or anything else. Likewise, the paramedics and fire departments will come rescue them or put a fire out in their apartment/shack/whatever and the police currently investigate when one is robbed, mugged, or killed the same as any of us. The only benefits they don't receive are Social Security or any form of retirement. Well hell, I doubt I'll get Social Security when I retire in 2031 or thereabouts.

But the thing about the farm work isn't about immigrant bashing. There would be people lined up to do it if it paid a fair wage. But the illegal immigrants (and please don't call it immigrant bashing, I'm all for *legal* immigration and even like FK's plan to get the *illegal's* legal). Anyhow, the thing about the *illegal* immigrants is they arewilling to work for little to nothing because it's better than starving in Mexico but it means those farms who hire them have no incentive to offer a fair living wage.

If you so want to eliminate poverty in this country, eliminate the under-the-table illegal immigrant work force and make the farms and construction industry pay a fair living wage.

It's particularly obnoxious because these same people have no problem with American MNCs swallowing up the domestic economies of foreign countries. The chickens of imperialism are coming home to roost and the empire doesn't like it.

The average undocumented doesn't know that health and other state services are separate, so many are afraid to go to the ER and be reported to the authorities, especially if they ask for follow up. Our health system is a complicated mess and it's intimidating if you're afraid you'll get deported. And I already pointed out that they don't get medicare, medicaid, housing assistance, or food stamps, not to mention social security.

"and the police currently investigate when one is robbed, mugged, or killed the same as any of us." - You're joking, right Draug?

Opinion: There should be no such thing as an immigration control, people should be able to live in whatever country they can live. The only exception could perhaps be times of war or disease. Thusly we should stop with our bullshit "only so many poor people can come in at one time thing" it's ridiculous.

You want to solve illegal immigration? There is only one solution - make their immigration actually legal because they are going to come no matter what - you put them in a shit system and they are going to do the logical thing - go where they can survive. They don't fucking care if that breaks an American law or two, and neither would you. I have no patience for "they have no respect for the law those Mexican scumbags"

Give me a break. *I* have no respect for our immigration laws, they are trash.

Another way to fix illegal immigration would be to actually own up to the meaning of a "free" trade agreement and end our trash-ass agricultural subsidies which make farming in Mexico a completely untenable profession anyway.

You wonder where these people come from? Unprofitable farms in Mexico thanks to bullshit US agric subsidies. They don't, most of them, actually WANT to come to America, Mexico is their home. But if they stay there their family starves, it's about as simple as that.

They find a body here, and they investigate. As far as the mugging and robbery - I can't speak to that, although my brother is a cop and says he is no respector of person's when it comes to a crime. But then, he says one thing and loves to shove his "I'm a cop" attitude in everyone's face, so I take *everything* he says with an entire shaker of salt, not just a grain.

Also yeah Draug you are totally wrong about the social services thing - our illegal immigrants are an underclass who mostly completely shy away from social services, including calling the cops on crimes, because they fear discovery.

Letting Mexicans come in legally would lower the crime rates, not raise them, contrary to the racist popular belief. And no I'm not saying you are racist yourself but the anti-immigrant sentiment is rooted in racism, xenophobia and nationalism, this much is plain.

The problem, as I see it, with the jobs illegals get is that not only does no one (who is not an illegal immigrant) want to do them, no one wants a fair wage allocated to those jobs. Nobody wants the price of tomatoes to go up. No one wants the cost of a new home or a hotel room to go up. No one wants to pay janitorial staff much because it saves on your overhead. It's not just the person hiring them, but in many cases, they're forced to hire illegals to keep their costs down.

I think the biggest problem is that we've gotten used to luxuries. When I was a kid, our phone line was shared by five houses. We had one television in the house, and it was ancient. Our phone was a rotary dial. Our family had one car for a long time, and when it went to two, the second one was a beater. And we were solidly middle class. Home video games and cable TV and computers were pretty rare still. We ate out very rarely, only on special occasions, and the kids (such as I) earned the majority of the money we had (through farm work, for me). We bought fruits and vegetables when they were in season then canned them for later. And this was the 70's, early 80's.

Now, you see very few used cars on the road, used car lots are almost totally gone. My son's friends were astonished that we only had one TV (although it is a nice one) and no cable. Everyone has their own personal phone and computer. People go on trips at a whim, and eat out constantly. More, more, more. With real wages not increasing, and in fact going down, all these luxuries that we've grown accustomed to (and me as much as anyone else) need to be paid for somewhere. Low wages to the people who make them is the logical answer.

And I agree, Thucy. Which is why I support a path to citizenship for those here whose only crime is being here illegally. I also believe we should open up our borders more to allowing other nationalities in more readily. The only disqualifying factors should be inclusion on terrorists watch lists or those who can't pass a criminal screening from their own country (we can ignore political crimes, of course).

But to do *all* this, we have to fund the immigration service so they can hire enough staff to *do* the background checks and we need to open up the opportunity to apply *at the border*, not at some office inside the foreign country where the would be citizen has to wait forever. We shoudl also make it innocent until proven guilty and allow them in assuming the pass the watch list check while awaiting the foreign country's background check, not make them wait for everything to check out.

@SD - sounds like you are my age. Grew up a child of the 70s and early 80s, now 45 and remember finally getting a VCR and renting movies on Friday night instead of going to the theater because we could rent a movie for the cost of just one ticket. We only went to the movies at a drive-in in the summer when the drive-in had a car load, not per person, price.

Yeah no I agree Draug. We should probably go back to an immigration scheme pre Quota act. Like in the early 1900s.

Not the inhumanness and racism lol more like the droves and droves we let in.

Give me your tired, your poor.

Do we not believe these words, or what? What is with this "Give me your best, your brightest, your college educated only. No farmers need apply. Unless you are a political dissident in a country we have a score to settle with."

I mean come on. Haha.

I also agree that the wage thing is a significant issue.

Fact is people are just going to have to understand that an avocado is actually worth a lot more than they think it is.

Why is this? Because the labor of the people who grow it is worth more than what they are paid.

The only way to get the price back down is to find ways to use technology to farm and build even more so that we don't have to have farm hands and construction workers. With construction, robotics could be used, but farming really needs a human touch to determine what is ripe/quality produce versus what isn't.

We can start with tomatoes, though, for a test of the living wage in farm hands. I don't mind. I hate the damned things. :-)

Yup, I too remember the weekend carful drive in price...and seeing Star Wars at the drive in.

And the early 1900's were just as bad, Thucy. We didn't allow Chinese women in first (because they are all prostitutes, yes, even someone's infant daughter is a prostitute), and then Chinese full stop once we got the railroads built. There was even a publication by the INS that told you what the problems with each race was (like how lazy Italians are and whatnot) for use with immigration decisions.

I saw all of the Herbie movies and the Smokey and the Bandit movies at the drive in. It was the only way to watch them back then. One of the local drive-ins added an indoor theater and eventually went to two screens. During the summer, the first runs were indoors, but they would play two second run movies on the weekends at the drive-in.

I hear the drive-in is starting to make a come back...

Anyone desperate enough to want to immigrate to the US should be let in, no questions asked.

lol no i know that SD i took an entire class on it actually.

i meant more in spirit not in actual form.

thats what i meant by removing all the racist trash