Sold clothes a bit cheaper with those doors locked until closing time. Then again 146 girls died, its alright though, those moral business leaders were willing to give the families 1 week of pay.

Small government advocates proceed under the assumption that government is immoral and the marketplace is moral when the exact opposite is true.

I don't think we're getting anywhere.

The Holocaust perpetuated by government killed as many as the Triangle fire in five minutes.
The ignorance of history displayed by Santa Claus is breathtaking.

The Soviet Unions state run Gulags killed an estimated seven million.

Gramailaj, are you that insecure that you would empower governments to have such enormous power to kill millions.
How indefensibly absurd.
The evils perpetuated by the sheep who support big government because of their own inadequacies is mind boggling.

Oh, so the fire's not as bad as the Holocaust. Glad THAT's cleared up! Market purity, whee.

And for the record, I'm a libertarian. I just don't make any bones about the fact that neither government nor individuals are moral.

I am so insecure that I would empower you to guide me away from empowering others.

The state is immoral AND the market is immoral. So there!

Tettleton, I think you must examine these individuals that are so need of big government looking out for them. Perhaps it is simply that they are woefully inadequate individuals with little to no work ethic who will perish if not feeding at the states tit. Of course...they will say, "Nooo....*I* don't need the states help! It's all those losers around me!" so you ask them, "If you are so concerned about the less fortunate, do you ever give of your time or money without the point of the government's gun at your head?" "Oh no....I....uh....charity???? Volunteer work??? Well, I don't care *THAT* much about other people...."

A simple examination of most liberal's lives exposes the fraud behind their supposed beliefs. Everyone needs help....but they only want help to come out of somebody ELSE'S pocket. Or, take Al Gore....the world is dying and man is killing it....but please don't ask me to give up my *massive* mansion, my limos or private jets.

The hypocrisy on the left is overwhelming and *consistent*.

Their attack on the free market, on the other hand, fails completely. they look are a individual companies here and there....like a shirt factory from ancient history...and say all business is bad. Funny....MOST people in the US are employed by small businesses, and most small business owners are ethical and comply with the law, regulations and taxes....and yet all get tarnished with the label "evil" by the very fools that need them to exist to redistribute wealth from!

And before anyone says my anecdote about charity is invalid....look it up. Republican/conservatives give more to charity, and more of their time. I'm sure you can find the study if you look. after all, you can find stories about a single company burning from long ago....(which, by the way, after burning and treating people so poorly....isn't in business anymore. i.e. the free market works.)

And before you raving loons start insulting my post without reading it, and just decide to attack my name....fuck off. Read and comprehend and actually reply to MY POINTS, instead of mindlessly spewing your personal attacks.

Haha, @krellin Fires are the ultimate tool the free market uses to correct itself.

This is the most absurd thing you've ever said for so many reasons.
Reason 1) The free market, by definition cannot be moral if it is truly free. It cannot be concerned with moral issues, the free market in it's purest sense would be completely amoral (as in, unconcerned with moral issues, which is different from immoral).
Reason 2) People arguing for government involvement in the market and other things is necessarily or inherently moral, the reasons for oversight and other things are quite varied and rather more complex than just "The government is moral".

The state and market are neither inherently moral or immoral., any more so than chairs are, or newspapers.

An immoral Government is capable of immorality on a grand scale. An immoral business is capable of immorality on the scale of the business. At the end of the day, this requires people to make immoral decisions. It is people who are moral or immoral

krellin, honestly, what points are there to which one might reply? Your post is nothing but ad hominems against those of a left-leaning orientation.

The market has no force to compel you. You don't have to buy anything in the market you don't want to. The argument that the market is immoral collapses on its own.

The market offers a mute for Krellin. Ultimate proof the market is moral.

Krellin, your entire post was just a large ad hominem attack on everyone on the left, claiming that we're all hypocrites, and then you actually have the nerve to say "And actually respond to my points don't just make an ad hominem attack! Actually respond to my points." What points, all you did was just make an insulting generalization about every single liberal in the world. What the hell? Seriously.

I'm actually going to ignore everything in this thread simply because anyone opening as Tettleton did isn't worth having a conversation with.

Tettleton: you will anger me again, I am sure. Your views are so sadly distorted.... It's obvious you've never had to fight for your living, never known days without food, never had to struggle to raise your family. I've known and still know very rich people who would still shudder at the sight of the insanities you sometimes post.
I never thought I'd do this, but I'm muting you. Your idiocy, disguised under the capacity to refer to other people's intelligence, is a constant insult to humanity and decency. I would actually consider hitting you in the face if I met you. And that's why I never want to hear from you again.

wow.... Moral business... fucking hell.... my world is a touch gloomier because of you, dickhead.

Mafia - Point 1 is almost a valid point. the same can be said of governments. But, generally speaking, a free market - one in which consumers are allowed to choose who to buy from, will purchase from "better" companies. If you know that Company A employees 13 year old girls, and Company B produces the same product with adult, who will you choose to buy from? If the free market is immoral...or amoral...then society is. And if society is at best amoral, and a society chooses it's leaders, then a government is at best amoral....except that most believe that power corrupts, and thus government tends towards immoral because it can because noone can stop it (as opposed to free markets, where immoral companies die) Enron, for example, is dead. It was immoral. Fanie Mea and Freddia Mac, on the other hand, are immoral quasi-government agencies that go on and on and on...

I see Tettleton. So the only requirement for something to be moral is if you're given a choice about whether or not to participate. So because I don't have to buy slaves if I feel it's wrong, slavery isn't immoral?

@Mafia....it was not an ad hominem attack on the left. (I'll bet you just learned that phrase, didn't you?) The left claims moral superiority all the time, claims they care more about people than others do, claim Republicans want to eat your babies and throw old people off of cliffs....and yet if you examine some measure of self-sacrifice for others....such as charity giving and volunteer work...the left loses. It is NOT an ad hominem attack. It is an opinion based upon facts. Just becuase you don't like the facts doesn't make the attack invalid.

The sheep believe that their wants demand satisfaction in the marketplace, and that if another individual possesses something the sheep don't then the market is immoral.

What is immoral is the envy, jealousy, and greed of the sheep.

By the way, Mafia....thanks for actually responding to a point instead of just attacking me. FAIL. Typical...

I think his point is simply that the market isn't immoral if slaves are sold on it, but rather that the individuals buying and selling slaves are immoral for partaking in slavery. The market is a non-sentient vehicle for that practice and is no more immoral than the horse pulling a wagon full of slaves to the marketplace.

Of course, that doesn't make it moral, either. It just makes it amoral.

Tet - have fun with this. You are right on the money most of the time. Your opposition, as mafia just demonstrated, more frequently than not are completely incapable of addressing points made in discussion, and have a very selective acceptance of facts. It makes most of this utterly worthless...

This is the stupidest thread ever. Mute!

Uh, krellin. What you're doing is in fact nothing more than ad hominems. An ad hominem is an attack on a person instead of an argument. There was no argument presented here claiming that the left was morally superior. You just opened up attacking people on the left as being less charitable/etc. than people on the right, and while you might have numbers to back this (we haven't seen them yet), that doesn't change that it's nothing more than an attack on character.

Annnnnd.....Mafia can't construct a valid reply. So he took his ball and went home. How sad.

The sheep ignore their own inadequacy and the abilities, ambition, work ethic, frugality, dedication, an craftsmanship of others.
The sheep beckon for big government to take from others what the shape either cannot produce for themselves, will not produce for themselves, or covet for themselves.
The sheep who beckon for big government call those they envy immoral, greedy, profiteers while they ignore their own inability to match their own desires with their own wants and drives.

The market simply brings together the producer with the consumer in a voluntary meeting.
The sheep who beckon for big government simply covet what others have.