"Gunboat games by necessity will end up having results that are fairly random"

Not if you're good at gunboat.

What 2WL said. And in gunboat, you can still make alliances by your moves and the results are determined by the role of the dice.

@2ndWhiteLine

I disagree. I think a good portion of success at gunboat relies not on strategic considerations but on starting position - a seasoned player who starts near a bunch of noobs is going to come out a lot better than a noob who starts out surrounded by veterans. From there, since the decision of whom to attack is somewhat random, you get additional nondeterminancy introduced from those factors. On top of this, it seems to me that patience will play a larger role in determining a winner than strategy. Finally, there are a couple more ways to "game" the system that I'll refrain from posting that will end up more important than actual ability to coordinate military assaults.

To me the analogy is a lot like chess vs. checkers. Tell me, have you tried Axis and Allies?

I have and Axis and Allies taste great with Cheese Wiz. Yummy!

Al, you disagree, but then list several reasons that serve to prove my point that gunboat is indeed *not* random.

I don't have time for playing with noobs, I play either local tourneys or passworded games.

The thing about Axis and Allies is that it's almost impossible for the Axis to win and the game usually just degrades into building towers of infantry after the first few rounds. I like the game, but it can't hold a candle to Diplomacy.

Invictus, I've heard it said quite often that it's impossible for the Axis to win, but I've had multiple wins playing as the Axis. You just have to aggressively attack and coordination between players helped tremendously, particularly early on against Russia. Playing as Japan once I actually wound up overtaking all of Asia, Russia, and liberating the German capital!

I would say the Anniversary edition of the game was MUCH better than the original (which I loved). It balanced out unit purchase options by adding artillery pieces (kind of between infantry & tanks in strength & cost and gave a boost in attack strength to accompanying infantry) as well as destroyers & cruisers to balance out fleet purchases. It also added Italy as a playable country & China (played by US player)

Many ages ago, I was unbeatable as the Axis with the original version and rules. Only played the newer version a few times. Play with five players, and you can truly respect the coordination it took the allies to win WWII. Lots of strategies to play out…Torch or not to Torch, North Africa Korps, British 8th Army, when to invade France, Germany First or Japan First, Strategic Bombing, Wolfpacks in the Atlantic, Pearl Harbor II.

I only won once as the Axis, and that was down to a novel strategy of building an industrial complex in Africa and thus avoiding the usual slow drain of IPCs that Germany usually faces as England takes Africa back. Plus my friend playing Japan was aggressive, as you have to be to have a chance as the Axis.

Is there anywhere to play Axis and Allies online, by the way? That seems like it would be a fun game to play, even against a computer.

Al - Gunboat isn't random if, as you say, the seasoned pros do better. And yes, I play A&A. It is fun and can be played by people of all ages but gunboat doesn't have to deal with A single destroyer sinlong an entire battle group or a single infantry destroying a squad of tanks.

@Kochevnik - There is two: one a play by email and one a site like this. Don't know the links to either but I've come across both.

And BTW, winning as Axis isn't as hard as it seems. You just need to be aggressive. Germany can usually take Leningrad (and the territory that it is in, forgot it's name) using Norway as well. From there, they can either a) try and make the Soviet line a stalemate b) push on towards Moscow. If you choose to try for a stalemate, then you can focus more on Africa (using some Western armies/fighters as well). If the UK's presence in Africa is large and you have a stalemate line with the Soviets, you have a problem: neither front can be pushed. Considering you do "b", then you'll have less resources towards a possible West Europe attack by UK/US and you'll be fighting an even tougher war in Africa. If the Japanese can push through Eastern Russia and on through China/Singapore then you have a likely victory coming your way.

Meanwhile, if your playing the Japs, then taking India/Australia is almost a MUST. India unlocks the Middle East to Japan as well as China. Australia gives you control of a major UK island and the ability to move to like 5 seas in a turn (don't know if that is factually correct; I haven't played in a while).

Anyways, it's a damn fun game. Not as good as Diplomacy though...

@Invictus. True, I agree that Full-Press Diplomacy is a superior game to Axis and Allies. But if you think that playing Axis and Allies is a bit tough, especially the land battles, try to remember that Joseph Stalin was able to win just such a land war, sustaining attack after attack over a period of years. In the snow. While brutally suppressing internal dissent. Drunk. Don't try to make it sound boring or easy. =-)
And I win as the Axis all the time. I don't think my side has lost in the last 20 games that I've played.

@Kochevnik - There doesn't seem to be a decent multi-player version available. I was hoping that since there are a lot of smart people on this website, someone would be able to refer us to a Free/Open-Source game similar to Axis and Allies. Any ideas?

@Draugnar - People who complain about dice, in my opinion, are not able to make plans that account for the minor variability associated with large battles. It's all about having the wherewithal to develop contingency plans.

Axis and Allies is a splendid game, I hope somebody on this site knows where we can get our hands on a hosted, poor-man's version of it.

Don't get me wrong. Playing Axis and Allies preserved my and my cousins' sanity on many a Christmas and Easter. And I've played the computer game so I get the strategy. But it really isn't the best designed game if you want something that;s actually fun after the first hour or so.

@Al - I have the code for it, but I'd need permission from another site and I'd need to setup a server and I'd need to implement the code and so on.

@King of Diplomacy - Yeah, sounds like a bit of work but if you elect to take the effort, I'll certainly be up for playing a match with you. I'm glad that you're also a fan of the game.

I think anyone on here who enjoys Gunboat, but hasn't tried Axis and Allies, would be in for a treat if they try it.

@Al - I wasn't complaining. Just making a point that gunboat dip is not random like A&A. I enjoy A&A and Risk both, bit recognize that the best laid plans can still get fucked over by bad dice rolls. Even with contingencies just as a bad read on you opponent/ally can result in getting fucked over in Dip or Poker.

I think Axis and Allies would actually be quite fun online, on a site like WebDiplomacy, for the patient player. Having 24 hour turns, or something like that, would help to negate the fatigue that comes with playing A&A in a single setting, and also allow time for communication and coordination between teammates.

Axis and Allies requires going in with enough extra units to survive a bad dice rolling streak or at least the ability to quit early on to preserve forces for next year. The Axis can easily crush Russia if the other Allies either don't reinforce it or delay opening a major front in Western Europe.

I think my best power in Axis and Allies is as the lowly Japanese. The key to my japanese strategy: ignore the American fleet building in Hawai'i or on the West Coast initially. Go hard after Australia. And for God's sake, build a factory in Indochina right away. Then, after you've taken Australia, in the second turn you can combine your northern fleet hanging off Kamchatka with your southern fleet that concentrated on the attack on Australia, and go hunt down the American Pacific fleet. As long as you can pull a draw when you finally meet, you have America locked out of the Pacific long enough that you can dominate Asia to Persia, and Siberia to Moscow. Then, it's just a matter of deciding whether you want to pick up a bunch of British territories in Africa, or concentrate on Moscow, while building enough to naval and air units to ensure that America can't recoquer the Pacific from you.

I love A&A, but I'm fairly convinced that if a competent player is at the helm for the Allies, the Allies will never, ever, lose (barring catastrophic dice rolling, which is why Dip is better imo). Here's why 2 reasons why: it's a historical simulation, and the allies won in real life, so they should win in the game. Also, the game was designed by a pro-American patriot, and I think that comes through in the design - just a bit, but enough. My strategy for the allies is this: Russia reinforces China and India with fighters and a couple of infantry, then builds enough infantry to hold Germany; UK builds a factory in India and sends its fighters to reinforce Russia; US builds a factory in Sinkiang and sends all its Pacific fighters to reinforce Russia/China. Thereafter the allies can drop 5 tanks a turn (or three tanks and two fighters) on mainland Asia and the simple math takes over. It always works for me, at any rate.

BobG, we play Japan the same way.
Japan is really the key, IMO. Germany usually can't take Russia out by himself, so Japanese help--a Second Front--is essential. And trying to kill Britain instead of Russia has never worked for me.

I tried "Game Table Online" for A&A, but it was slow as a wet week to load, so I gave up.
And to get much joy, you have to fork out moolah. I wouldnt mind paying, if there was a good community and the downloads werent so damned slow.
Anyone else had any experiences online?

I swapped Axis and Allies for History of the World. Best swap I ever made.

@FlemGem...if you are playing a competent Japan, he willl take those factories and then what?

@flc...if you reinforce those factories as I mentioned Japan can't take them - barring a dice miracle, of course.

Japan can take India on its first turn without lucky rolls. Japan can also take the a China territory on the first turn and then the second China territory on the second turn before USA has a chance to place any units. My experience was with the original game, rules, and units. I know that newer versions and varients have been developed that may have some impact.

@ Draugnar - No problem at all, Sir. I was attempting to give you a friendly punch in the arm, on the off chance that you would welcome a well-intentioned challenge. No matter. Whether or not you agree with me, you are certainly entitled to your opinions. Moreover, you in particular are welcome to politely criticize anything that I post here -- I genuinely welcome the feedback from you.

I was able to locate a site that has Axis and Allies matches, but it looks like the darn thing runs on Java. Urgh.

What I was really wondering is if any of the players here can recognize a suitably similar strategy game? There is quite a group of bright people here and surely someone must know of a fun browser-based strategy game.

@flc I haven't played the original verson for many, many years so I may be a bit rusty. It may well be that the older version was easier for the axis to win. As it is now, the Russian Far East is less economically valuable and Russia can afford to move some troops to help protect China until a factory is in full swing.

both Axis&Allies (classic 80's rules) and History of the World (2000 WotC rules) are available for free at gamesbyemail.com

There's an app in the app store called "European War". It's WWII-based and takes off of Axis and Allies (rolling dice, industrial factories, multiple units) plus it has about the exact same map as A&A.

Also, for everyone who is complaining about "any good plan can be ruined by a bad roll", every plan has to be well thought out.
"It's not a well thought out plan if it fails."- Unknown

@King - The vast majority of the time I'd agree with you, but the simple fact is that sometimes very, very weird things happen with dice. For example, in a Risk game I once attacked a territory with an advantage of 21 armies to 3. I lost. What are you gonna do? It's one of the pitfalls of dice-based games....not that I ever stopped playing dice-based games :-)

@FlemGem - Yes, I agree with you there, considering that Risk is probably the game most derived by luck. In A&A, however, you have different factors going into play.

@Al - I hope you didn't take offense at anything I said. To me, the slang for fornication is an everyday word and I sometimes forget that not everyone appreciates that it can be used in an excited but non-derogatory manner. If you find a site that plays it and plays it well, post it here. I'll play. Dip is the superior game where random chance comes into play, but I also like A&A. Heck, I play poker for real cash and there are times when it comes down to the showdown and then it's all abput who fortune favored... The guu with best odds or the guy with lick on his side.

Luck not lick. phone keyboard typo.

@dudefella - Wow! Just...wow! Thanks, I'll sign up for a game soon.

Maybe Draugnar would want to join.