Nope, can't do it.

D'aw, come on, Putin...

If I can do it, you can!

Is there not even a single theistic work of literature or art that was inspired partially by theism that you enjoy?

(If Hitchens, Nietzsche, and Dawkins could all find examples, I'm sure you can, given how anti-faith that Trinity is.)

Something tells me Mohammed and Buddha wouldn't partake in the beer summit.

Islam has produced little to no art due to their prohibition against works representing god, and very little literature. Of the three, Islam is the most anti-civilizational. The few works of art that were produced were done by heretical mystics who worship saints and such.

Some churches are impressively built, at least the older ones. Too bad many of the greatest were destroyed by the Turks, or are being destroyed by the Albanians today. There is some good classical music inspired by Christianity, such as die Schopfung.

Judaism hasn't produced much, however the national Jewish culture has. To the extent to which the former influences the latter, it has been a civilizational boon. But the bulk of Jewish contributions to civilization have been in advocating for secularism and religious freedom, among other things.

But really all of this pales in comparison to what was destroyed.

^Agreed.

Two nice things about Judaism. One, they don't have a central human figure who can be accused of having been a conman. Two, proselytism is not a cornerstone of their doctrine.

One nice thing about Christianity. The policy of "turn the other cheek", as opposed to the Jewish doctrine of "An eye for an eye", is a useful way of defusing conflict.

One nice thing about Islam. It teaches people personal discipline.

I know we are not meant to be critical here, but I can't help adding that unfortunately Islam is too rigorous for most humans, so it ends up teaching people that image is more important than the truth.

Putin damns with faint praise.

I have many atheist friends, and one thing I admire about them is their attitude towards life: that it is short, that it is all there is, and so make the most of it. Carpe diem, and all that. Sometimes a believer is too busy living for the afterlife, and not living this life to the fullest, which I believe is more in line with what Jesus taught.

I like this thread.

Islam preserved classical thought and moved civilization forward while christians were deciding how to better kill each other and delve into religious minutia.

Christianity, paradoxically has popularized and spread notions of liberty, equality and justice with the left hand while taking them away with the sword in the right. Lets praise the left hand.

Obiwan shows time and again that he doesn't know shit about his own religion (original sin in Judaism?), but at least his mindless drivel makes this abundantly clear.

I'm betting on 23 more comments before it devolves into the usual banter.

Judiaism: Kafka, not expressly a believer but the concepts of the religion deeply infiltrate his writing.
Christianity: One thing, Hieronymous Bosch, genius painter who's images inspired by religion are something that has no equal (and admitedly a few disciples of notable merit such as Peter Breughel). But I cant fail to mention some of my favorite writers who were deeply influenced by Christianity Dostoevsky, Kierkegaard, T.S. Eliot, Emerson, Tolstoy... I could go on.
Islam: Moorish Architecture and cultural influence on the iberian peninsula, having travelled to spain and portugal some of the most memorable elements of the cultures that i experienced were direct anscestors of the Caliphate that once ruled the peninsula. At times it almost seems it was an enlightened world compared to the rest of Europe.

@dD_ShockTrooper +1
Seriously how many times can the internet have the same conversation about religion, that seems to overshadow everything else when it comes up.

I'll go, as a Christian.

Atheism: The idea that this life is all you get - make the most of it (similar to dipplayer above). I really much prefer that to the brand of Christianity (which is, in my view, not Biblical at all) that says "Well, the world is going to burn so I'm not responsible in this life to try to improve it." That's a terrible attitude, and I like the way that the worldview of atheism prompts so many to try to change the world in the here and now.

Islam: Definitely the brotherhood among Muslims is admirable to me. I know they have their squabbles and divisions as well, but to see 1000 people all praying together in a mosque is something.

Buddhism: The idea of meditation is one that I think we neglect, as a whole, among Christians. I really do like the practice and I think that Buddhists get a lot of value from it.

Judaism: This one is hard, since for a Christian Judaism is basically spot on except for in identifying who the Messiah is. There are so many things I love about Judaism, but mostly they are things that also part of Christianity.

Good thread, by the way.

This is a difficult subject for me because it's hard to separate out those things for which religion is directly responsible. I'm of the opinion, for example, that most, if not all, of the times that I hear someone saying they "found inner strength/peace/etc." in religion x that it's usually just them finding that quality for themselves and, in attributing it to religion, shortchanging themselves unfairly. This extends to a degree to finding inspiration in religion x - naturally, if you read the story of the Flood and felt inspiration to paint a masterpiece about the Flood, then sure, that's inspiration I would chalk up to the religious tale, just like I might do the same if someone told me they were inspired to paint a picture of Vietnam vets after reading The Things They Carried. But "this person got his life's inspiration and spirit to go on through x faith" is more or less the same thing and subsequent attribution of his life's work to that faith isn't really fair to him.

Now of course there's plenty of room to debate all of that, but from my perspective, believing that, it's hard to cite something. I'm going to go with Islam and Christianity's preservation of classical works, which helped to inspire the Renaissance, probably my favorite period in world history. Not familiar enough with Judaism or non-Abrahamaic faiths to comment.

I'm afraid I have to agree with Eden; in the counterfactual (not having religion), writers would still be able to write, painters to paint and architects to design. I'm sure that humanity can find other inspirations to produce.

Without Catholicism plundering to fund the Vatican, I think we could have had something more conducive to the flourishing of man. Let's not confuse what people achieve with an achievement of religion, and in so doing demean it.

Conversely, from a religious perspective, it can only really be in spite of atheism that we achieve.


Even what even says I have problems with, since "Islam and Christianity's preservation of classical works" is a clear example of the cherry-picking. They are both responsible for the destruction of a great deal of work, and also for a long period of stagnation. It seems like what is actually being said is "well, at least they didn't destroy everything that the Greeks produced".

"Even what even says I have problems with, since "Islam and Christianity's preservation of classical works" is a clear example of the cherry-picking. They are both responsible for the destruction of a great deal of work, and also for a long period of stagnation. It seems like what is actually being said is "well, at least they didn't destroy everything that the Greeks produced"."

Truth.

" At times it almost seems it was an enlightened world compared to the rest of Europe."

Really, despite their military and political preeminence, they produced very few great thinkers or great artists.

It took less than 20 comments. *sigh*

In alphabetical order:

Atheism: I particularly love Carl Sagan, and I find his own love of exploration and humility regarding human knowledge inspiring. Intellectual honesty and rigor are important elements to a well-examined life, for those who have the wherewithal to apply them. Prof. Sagan embodied these virtues. More generally, I think people could do with a better balance between skepticism and credulity -- and people tend to be credulous toward the people and groups that tickle their ears the most. Typically, atheism is marked by an adherence to skepticism as an approach to acquiring knowledge, and this is an important lesson for the more credulous.

Buddhism: I would cite the Dalai Lama as my prime example of inspirational Buddhists. He is tenacious in hope and compassion, and most certainly worthy of emulation. (As a side note: he also happens to be close friends with Desmond Tutu, who is one of my favorite people -- so, kudos) Generally, I find the 8-Fold Path to Enlightenment highly virtuous and the notion of Interdependence Rising a useful hold against excesses and abuse of the people and world around us.

Islam: It is my own ignorance that keeps me from identifying a famous individual to hold up as an inspiration from Islam. I can talk about my roommate from grad school, though, and cite him, personally, as a model of someone dedicated to rigorous adherence to principle in the face of a society that doesn't generally understand his way of life. I remember him getting up in the wee hours of the morning to pray; he decided to eat only Halal meat which made him effectively a pescetarian -- a hard thing for him, but about which he never complained; and he was exceedingly generous. His mom would send him food from Bahrain -- a taste of home -- and he was quick to share with me. Generally, the kindness combined with personal conviction and adherence sets a high bar for measuring integrity. This is a kind of integrity that I wish I could see more often, but rarely do; and it serves as a reminder for me and my own life.

Judaism: Eli Weisel is a prominent voice for some of the things I find most compelling in Judaism, today: Tolerance, mutual respect and peace, and the commitment to a serious inner spirituality. I don't agree with his position on Israeli settlements, but generally, he brings light to oppression and genocide when most of the world finds it inconvenient to see it. As a Christian, myself, I love the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets. I am singularly impressed with how even the explicitly-identified godly patriarchs are not whitewashed, and their vices and excesses are not denied or justified as tolerable. And I love that God is consistently portrayed as One on the side of the voiceless -- He hears the voices of those who nobody else can hear.

Great entry, Willtor.

"Even what even says I have problems with, since "Islam and Christianity's preservation of classical works" is a clear example of the cherry-picking. They are both responsible for the destruction of a great deal of work, and also for a long period of stagnation. It seems like what is actually being said is "well, at least they didn't destroy everything that the Greeks produced"."

Indeed it is. You can see how far down in the barrel I'm scraping.

Svidri, it's the most important topic in a person's life. Of course people want to talk about it!

"I'm betting on 23 more comments before it devolves into the usual banter."

"It took less than 20 comments. *sigh*"

So my point of view, because it is willing to say that one thing is better than another, isn't allowed? Islamic scholars provided the world with the first algebra, but then didn't pursue it because if the demands made by their religious leaders. The reformation was a good thing for Christianity, but only in the sense of ending some of the ills of the catholic church.

Pres. Eden's comment, followed by yours, seemed to me the first indications that the spirit of the thread was already gone, and that people were going to fall back into the usual arguments.

NO WE WONT! WHO SAID WE WOULD FALL BACK TO USUAL ARGUMENTS. U DONT GIVE A MAN ANY CREDIT. lol

"the spirit of the thread was already gone"

Does my view on the matter itself contradict the spirit of the thread?

One could argue the reformation did a little more than that, TGM. Because of the attendant ideal of personal eternal salvation, and the fact that this was more important than anything man could do, one could view the Reformation as the first really widespread time in history when the ideal of thinking for yourself for your own salvation/good took wings. Ancient Greece had that to an extent, no question, but there was still a lot of sense that you were living and thinking for your city, and were less important somehow. I think even atheism owes the Reformation a lot in this sense. (This may be tendentious though, and I don't want to utterly derail the thread, so having brought up the topic for thought, I'll leave it to others to reply to and won't respond to any but egregiously unfair responses).

Anyway, as to the thread's question -- I can't really say much good about belief systems that I think are false and extremely destructive. So I'll take it as an invitation instead to say something good about their followers as they have existed and lived.

Atheism -- I think, as others have said, atheism (as a movement) has a long tradition of prizing skeptical and careful reasoning. The ideal of unflinching acceptance of truth whether you like it or not, and of an analytical approach to life. Now I actually think these strains are being threatened and lost in the most popular modern manifestations of atheism, but one hopes they will return one day in strength, for they are laudable.

Islam -- The Muslim world did some fantastic mathematics back in the day, and saved a lot of culture at a time in history when much of the church had gone kind of crazy and was destroying things causelessly. It is to be lauded for this. There are some outstanding literary traditions in Islam; and many Muslims are kind and helpful people. I once bought a used car from a Muslim dealer in a city 100 miles from where I lived. We did the paperwork, shook hands, and left. He later realized he could not file the registration paperwork in his county. Rather than telling me to deal with it (or telling me about it at all), he drove the 100 miles to where I live to do it in person, and then called me to come pick up the receipt. Impressive!

Judaism -- I appreciate the profoundly contemplative and philosophical approach to life of many religious jews. As a culture, jews have obviously contributed far beyond their numbers in almost every branch of science and art. In my personal acquaintances I have usually found adherents friendly, questioning, and supportive.

Indeed, atheism owes Protestantism quite a lot. Especially Calvinism. Enlightenment & Reform went hand in hand.