.3511 KingRishard
.3056 redhouse1938
.2708 Tasnica
.2222 Emperormaximus
.2222 2ndWhiteLine
.1528 BrianOfBoru
.1481 yebellz (Live games)
.1250 KingJohnII
.1056 Mr_rb
.04795 JesusPetry
.004630 ODaly
0. Spartan22
N/A PosterboyPatriot

I posted in your last thread. I'm still interested in the tournament and the qualification game.

@Skittles: my apologies. Coming monday I'll organize everything.

@red

A while ago, you asked for my input. I was busy and then forgot about it until I saw this post, so here are my thoughts:

I like that you are only counting Standard WTA games. I also like how you can't inflate your score by just playing more games. I think those are both really strong points.

You don't consider the quality of opponents in your scoring system. On one hand, this simplifies the system, which is nice. On the other hand, if this becomes a popular scoring system, it can be very easily gamed.

Finally, I note you rate winning very, very highly. This will encourage players to risk everything to get a win. For instance, if you win 5/20 games and lose the rest, you'll still have a higher ranking than if you were in a 3way all 20 games. I'm not saying this is good or bad, but it's important to be cognizant of what your system rewards.

Out of curiosity, how did you come up with the function for draws? Did you just play around until you found something you liked? Was it systematic?

red - will your tournament be anon?

also - will you calculate our 'scores' or do we have to do it ourselves?

@Babak
There is no way you qualify as a new player.

@red
Something about the way you seed players concerns me. If a player wins their first and only game, the will have a score of 1. Clearly, this doesn't accurately represent their skill. If this tournament was for experienced players and 20 games was a minimum, then this issue would be mitigated to the point of irrelevantcy. However, with a max of 20 games and no minimum, I think you'll find your seeding to be rather inaccurate.

@abge
Thanks for your interesting response!

Re: strength of opponents. I have had this discussion with MrcsAurelius as well, both of you are very correct in pointing it out. I have contacted TGM on my tournament but I think he's busy. I currently lack the mathematical tools to construct a score that is based on opponent strength, however, I will introduce this as the "Omnivore rating". It's mathematical form is yet to be determined, and I strongly hope that someone will step forward with some interesting equations.

Re: winning is rated very, very highly.
Correct, I recently posted a thread on the forum about a game I played that I two-way drew in a game called "Get Down" (see profile). I have received very strong criticism from several players who insisted that a win is much more valuable than a draw. I then tried to quantify the mathematical value of a victory as compared to drawing and losing. I believe I succeeded in doing so (see the thread where I explain the formula's rationale) based on a "hunting scenario", where other players represent prey to be captured.

Re: First win.
No currently used score (GR / points) accurately reflects starting players. If any system is fair it's this one. The idea is not so much to discover strength, as well as talent; I think the Carnivore score is a good estimator of how talented a new player is, and a bad estimator of how strong an experienced players is.

@Babak

Thanks for your interest!

Re: anon.
I aim to make this tournament extremely safe and fair. It will be anon, but the names of the players in a game will be published. It is forbidden to "sign" messages in the first 3 diployears of the game, in other words, "greetings, Austria" won't pass, as it sometimes reveals certain players' identities. The games will be password protected.

Re: do it ourselves
For you, N=73 and C=.2265. I'd very much like to have you in the tournament, but you're too experienced. If you know people who can help me set up an Omnivore tournament for experienced players with an appropriate scoring mechanism, I'd be happy to hear it.

@All: tournament
I will probably give the definitive format on monday, and hope to have much more people then. Games will be, as said, Classic, WTA, Full press. Antes of 50-100 , post here to participate, calculate your own score if you can, 1.5 day phases and if possible a live game.

I may start another qualification game for people who are not yet rated, or they can sign up with C=0.

userID=24275 this guy has C=1 :) (I think N=2 or 3)

@Red

Ghost's system is actually very straight-forward.

Everyone starts with a Ghost Rating of 100. When you join a game, you "bet" 1/17.5 of your points. If you win, you get all the points in the pot; if you tie, you split the pot.

So, if you have a GR of 250 and are playing against 6 players with GR of 100, then you risk 15 more GR points, but at best can net 15 fewer than anyone else. In theory, it makes sense that the scoring system doesn't reward people for playing lower-quality players, but I'm not convinced it's scaled properly.

This isn't like Chess, where the winner is, without questions, the better player. There are many more factors in Diplomacy and it's not uncommon for players to reap the benefits of playing against better players without ever interacting with them (Take England and Turkey, for example).

The math in my second paragraph is wrong; I based it off of 1/10 instead of 1/17.5, but I think my point is clear enough.

Also, I think there is a serious problem with the top of the GR. The difference in GR between the 1st and 2nd spots is the same as the difference between the 2nd and 20th spots and the 20th to 510th spots. That doesn't seem right to me.

I've played Babak, Wizard, and MM many, many times on this site and F2F. MM is an amazing player, but he is not 100% better than Wizard or Babak. Something really wrong is happening at the top of the GR.

More to the point, if I won a game against MM, even if no one else contributed points, I'd jump over 60 places into the top 100. In fact, even a 4way draw with him (which I've done), would almost put me into the top 100, even if no one else contributed. One player should not have that kind of influence over the scoring, no matter how good.


(In case it isn't clear, I'm looking for any excuse to avoid working on my thesis).

@abge, actually helping me think about this system is a very intelligent way to not work on your thesis. Well I'm not sure if I agree with you that playing MM should have a smaller effect on GR. The mathematics don't change just because somebody happens to have many points.
Of course what you're saying is true regarding Turkey/England, but part of the true art of the game I guess is to - being England - have maximum control over what Turkey does.

PS Join the tournament ladies and gentlemen. It'll be awesome.

Any est. start date for this tournament?

Monday.ish.

is it too late to sign up?

.3511 KingRishard
.3056 redhouse1938
.2708 Tasnica
.2222 Emperormaximus
.2222 2ndWhiteLine
.1528 BrianOfBoru
.1481 yebellz (Live games)
.1250 KingJohnII
.1157 moskowitz
.1056 Mr_rb
.04795 JesusPetry
.004630 ODaly
0. Spartan22
0. Skittles
N/A PosterboyPatriot

We need more people join everyone!!!

OOO, Can I join?! :)

Sure Sandgoose, but I will address you as ... "Desert Viper". ;) You need points for entry though, can you get some over the weekend?

Well I am probably going to lose this game I am in right now which was supposed to help me get points but...eh...

What's the entry need?

fee*

I'll enter if you need more players. I only have 1 full press WTA game completed (2 in progress) and I simply survived that one, so my rating would be 0 at the moment.

Sandgoose, the entry is $50. I set up a paypal account, PM me for the address.

Also, we may be better off expanding the entry qualifications to get more people.

.3511 KingRishard
.3056 redhouse1938
.2708 Tasnica
.2222 Emperormaximus
.2222 2ndWhiteLine X BANNED by a redhouse: metagaming attempt on forum
.1528 BrianOfBoru
.1481 yebellz (Live games)
.1250 KingJohnII
.1157 moskowitz
.1056 Mr_rb
.04795 JesusPetry
.004630 ODaly
0. Spartan22
0. Skittles
0. Haert
N/A Sandgoose
N/A PosterboyPatriot

bump

Did you really set up a paypal account and charging people $50? I only have 45 diplo points...live games for tomrw then...when do we start this thing thuogh?

That was a joke.

We start on WEDNESDAY!!!
Sorry really busy today and tomorrow..

Redhouse, I like the fact your formulae puts you second in the league :). Once the games commence we will have to see what we can do about that....

OUCH. below the belt, but not entirely unjustified. Have made huge efforts to attract high-ranking players though =)

There has been a lot of discussion about the qualification criteria, but virtually nothing mentioned about the competition structure.

How many games might one play: simultaneously and in total? Will there be multiple rounds, etc? What are the parameters of those games? What is the pause policy? What is the policy for NMRs/CDs? Will the live games be an independent competition or somehow integrated with the rest?

Not in, but I felt like calculating my ranking.

.3775

PE, son, get off the damn threads and go do your job(s).
Don't make me cut off your allowance.

Maaaaan, I don't have no allowance 'cept what I allow myself to spend when I'm not saving to move out in May!

I am interested in playing. I calculate my rating at .02152 sir.

Those who propose a pause will be shot.
Those who NMR will be hung.
Those who CD will be hung twice.
I've had enough.

Banned for an attempt at metagaming? What are you getting at redhouse?

@Woodsjacker, you will be added to the tournament, welcome!!
@PE, you're so full of it.
@2ndWhiteLine: I thought your attempt to gain financially from the tournament should be answered by mindless discrediting of your good name. It will remain forever in the cache files of the powerful entity called the Internet. Just kidding, you're in man.

Well, I calculated last 20 classic WTA full press anon games. About 40% were wins, 40% were defeat/survive/etc. and 20% were 3/4-way draws, I think. Maybe 35 / 35 / 30.

My attempt to gain financially would have worked too if it wasn't for you meddling kids!

Why don't you retry and we split 90/10 in my advantage. Organisational expenses and what not.
@PE sure I believe you.

60/40 plus country of my choice first round.

89/11 but I'll give you the country choice.

88.5/11.5, I choose Italy, and Eden gets to play in the tournament but not on my board.

You got it. Now that's diplomacy.

Wait, what?

Sorry for the delay in organizing this tournament. Things are not exactly rolling at my work.