Stab and kill. Kill, kill. As Arlo Guthry said, "I want to kill people." Kill Bill (both volumes).

I cant... yet...

It's his job to earn the draw by achieving 17 at the same time you achieve 17. If he can't do that on his own, you aren't bound to help him. Man up and take the solo.

Draw

is possible to be a good player without stabbing this way ?

A good player would not allow himself to be stabbed. If the window is open, you should take it.

why stab just to win a few more points and a little better ghost rank when you can draw and win the appreciation of your ally?

I am always pissed when a player support another player and they go 17 17 you are just wIring to eliminate others and taking a draw instead of just stabbing and taking a win and then more people have a survve

I reckon hellalt's just saying that so people wanna ally with him in his games : )

I don't have any problems finding allies. In fact, I have problems choosing the right ally.

I agree with hellalt.

I suspected you would, after the tendentious way you started the thread.

Maybe I have never won for this reason. But this game is waking up my evil side...

Don't get the wrong idea. I stab if I think that my ally was just following me without being good enough to deserve the draw. But if he did deserve it then I won't cry over a lost opportunity to win. Just my personal moral code applied to this game. I don't expect you to understand. My personal code is above all for me.

hellalt, nice to see I'm not the only that think this way = )

Stab if you can solo. Alliances are made to eliminate most of the competition. You need to eliminate your last competitor and take the win.

Glad to know that France!
Just kidding...

If you always stab, you won't ever be trusted. Mix it up a bit and show some compassion. It could lead to bigger and better stabs down the road.

denis,

Are you talking about this game? This game really angered me as England could have stabbed Germany after taking me out and gone for the solo.....

"hellalt, nice to see I'm not the only that think this way = )"

That was the point, though, to validate your moral cowardice, right? The way you started the thread leads one to think you were trying to find someone to give sanction to your inability to stomach a stab.

"If you always stab, you won't ever be trusted."

I imagine you couldn't have done nothing but stab if you're in a position to draw two ways or win. You must have made some deals before that, right?

"Mix it up a bit and show some compassion."

Compassion is for Switzerland and the Caspian Sea.

Sorry, forgot the link:

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=17823

Acosmist I actually agree with jimgov.
His point is that your gaming attitude should not be expected.
Something I realized the last 10 games of mine.
There should always be a level of deception
Between messages and actions, loyalty and stabbing
you name it.

why stab just to win a few more points and a little better ghost rank when you can draw and win the appreciation of your ally?

Meta-gaming is illegal. That's why.

The metagaming police will apparently lock you up in Gitmo

You are just trying to play it hard and macho.
ZaZa I don't recollect you stabbing me in that game we played together,

ZaZa, I wouldn't be making comments like that considering our game one situation and what you asking me to do in it... :-)

@zaza...how is drawing to win the appreciation of an ally considered metagaming?

From my understanding of metagaming, it is joining multiple games with the intention of allying in ALL of them. how is that the same thing?

a 17/17 draw is almost always metagaming (which simply means taking into account factors outside of a single game). But metagaming is not illegal in general. (though multi game alliances are)

ZaZa, I wouldn't be making comments like that considering our game one situation and what you asking me to do in it... :-)

That's different because it's stab-proof.

From my understanding of metagaming, it is joining multiple games with the intention of allying in ALL of them. how is that the same thing?

What's gaining apprciation for then? From what I understand it's to ally with them in future games.

what about having enough respect for an ally that sacrificed for the good of the alliance and drawing with them? I would say that this would fall in the category of "gaining their respect/appreciation" ... There is no mention of the future

@don...guess our definitions of metagaming are different

Hellalt--any advice I give here obviously doesn't apply to any current WTA game that we are in. <.<_>.>

The idea is to be trustworthy enough to win a particular game. But if the win presents itself, then you should take it. I have stabbed too early and lost games because of it or not stabbed and lost games because of it. If you stab me on the last move of the game to get the win...Bravo! Well played.

Usually draw, but if he's been an inconsiderate, ally of opportunity, then stab.

I agree with you Spell of Wheels
I'm not saying I want stabs out of the game.
I only hate stupid stabs.
But also accepting a draw instead of win to show someone my respect is also included in my book.
No, it's not for metagaming purposes. It's just the natural result for 2 hard working players that combined to the end. It would be unfair if one takes the victory and the other one nothing.
Of course when someone doesn't guard his lines then he's just a bad player and you can stab and go for the solo. I'm only talking about allies that gained your respect with their advanced level of play.

"I only hate stupid stabs."

The player who makes the stab doesn't think the stab is stupid. He thinks he is playing a good move. You can't blame him for not being as smart as you hellalt. If you hated everyone of a lower intellect than yourself, hellalt, you'd have no friends ;)

I usually try and win at all costs, sometimes though I might prefer draw for some reason, even though I might have a chance of winning. I have a good example but can not use it since I am still playing it and it's anon. Sometimes I also stab people even though they totally deserved a draw.
But I also do stupid stuff, like fight the guy who stabbed me even though its a WTA game and I will lose it cause of fighting.
So all in all, I am very random at deciding how to play.

@22.rhathaway: "how is drawing to win the appreciation of an ally considered metagaming"

Because it implies that you are helping someone out in one game, in the hope that they will help you in another game. That's very poor form.

"But I also do stupid stuff, like fight the guy who stabbed me even though its a WTA game and I will lose it cause of fighting."
Since you already know it's stupid, then WHY do you do it???

cause its fun and sometimes i prefer revenge and death than draw

stab or be stabbed- it's not like he stabs every ally he has. take the win by stabbing if you can. if it's open he should be punished for trusting you as much as to leave the backdoor open.

if you're gonna give me a couple sc's easy by not covering your ass, i'll take it in a heartbeat.

This is a great thread for me. I have really been wrestling with the whole win versus draw thing and I am looking for advice. I have a 50% draw rate now. Admirable perhaps, but too low of a win rate to get my GR bumped up.

It seems there is always some dilemna about winning at the end. I'll give scenarios from 3 of my games and ask for your advice and comment. If anyone is interested enough, I'll supply the game links.

Game1. Live game with 5 minute phases plus allies were SOOO perfectly loyal and reliable and helpful. Finished in a 3-way draw where I had 13 centers. The reasons I decided not to stab an ally were: a) that 5-min phase was awfully short for figuring how to execute a thoughtful precise foolproof stab, and b) the allies had sacrificed a lot for me, a draw would be the fairest thing, right?

Game 2. I'm in the lead but the other guys are pressuring for the draw. I've caved in other games so I'm holding on for the win this time, but they are throwing all kinds of guilt and crap at me to make me cave. One guy has been such a great ally, like in Game 1 above, so I really do feel guilty. Do you have to be a jerk to have a high GR?

Game 3. I held out for the win against Madmarx, who had been a fantastic loyal ally, sacrificed for me, did everything. I still feel guilty about stabbing him, and he had not forgiven me. (He was Italy so he had the disadvantage, but he did succeed in stalling my progress long enough so I had to draw at the end anyway.)

Thanks in advance for any advice you guys have!

crazyter, you asked, so i will respond. i stab when necessary to get the solo. in this case if i can solo. you have to be bold sometimes. i don't think honor comes into play here. i've made early stabs before too though, so you have to be careful about timing, i would have solo'd in one live game as france had i waited one more year to stab germany for instance. draws are great for GR, as long as you draw with highly ranked players, or people of similar GR. remember that the goal is always to solo, but that draws aren't too bad either

Thanks Otto. Anyone else care to comment?

ummm, I'm really not sure where I stand with two way draws, but take honour and quality of the ally into account massively when deciding if and when to stab. I've never two way drawn and am not against the idea in theory, but would always be very tempted to win if I had the opportunity, so there would have to be a great ally and a great game for me to draw... It really depends

It would not be in the spirit of the game (which is total egoism), but if he was that faithful an ally, I would probably draw.

bump

I would stab my own mother if it meant getting 18 that turn. If winning would be a more drawn out affair after the stab I would be far more reluctant because a reputation as a good ally and honorable player is probably worth more than 1 win in the long run

Lol frito, that was funny