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hecks (164 D)
19 Nov 13 UTC
Christmas Music: How Soon is too Soon?
A local station went to an all-Christmas-music format last Monday. I say that's too early. What's your personal acceptable threshold for listening to Christmas music?
29 replies
Open
SYnapse (0 DX)
20 Nov 13 UTC
Gunboat
hey I am currently in an anonymous gunboat game, in which there are other players, and i control a country
2 replies
Open
SYnapse (0 DX)
19 Nov 13 UTC
At which point did the Nobel Peace Prize lose all credibility?
Which of these really made it into the joke it now is?
1. When Kissinger got it
2. When Al Gore got it
3. When Obama got it
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Putin33 (111 D)
20 Nov 13 UTC
(+1)
I defer to authority on subjects I know nothing about.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
20 Nov 13 UTC
The answer is it's ALWAYS been a joke!

Peace Prize created by the inventor of DYNAMITE.

Yeah...next up--

The Firemen from "Fahrenheit 451" will come up with a Literary Prize!
Invictus (240 D)
20 Nov 13 UTC
"Do you have any basis to say that great literature is coming out of China or Indonesia or Nigeria?"

I have a hard time believing it isn't. In the past ten years, six of the winners have been European. Seven depending on if Turkey counts. It's absurd to think that the game is tilted that heavily in Europe's favor.
Putin33 (111 D)
20 Nov 13 UTC
Nobel's belief was that devastating weapons would make war impossible. Plenty believe the same thing re: nuclear weapons.
Invictus (240 D)
20 Nov 13 UTC
It's also the case that there's only been one winner who wrote in Arabic. We're supposed to believe that out of 290 million speakers only one's really good enough to get the prize?
Putin33 (111 D)
20 Nov 13 UTC
They can only judge the nominations they receive. Perhaps non-European academies and professors do not submit nominees in very large numbers.

ILN (100 D)
20 Nov 13 UTC
"Peace Prize created by the inventor of DYNAMITE."

I don't get what's so wrong, does dynamite not have peaceful civilian purposes like in mining? Does the fund being created by the discoverer of dynamite make it any less credible? Discrediting it for that is plain retarded..
Invictus (240 D)
20 Nov 13 UTC
That's probably part of it. But then how to explain the lack of American winners? It's not like we're lacking in English departments. There are plenty of American writers of high enough standing to be plausible winners, but the last winner was in 1993.
Yonni (136 D(S))
20 Nov 13 UTC
ILN, dynamit was his big invention but his fortune came from arms manufacturing. His family story is pretty interesting.
Invictus (240 D)
20 Nov 13 UTC
It's even worse for Latin America. Despite having a robust and well respected literary culture (though I can't see the appeal, the magical realism stuff I read for my translation classes was so dull), only three non-Spaniard Spanish language writers have won the prize. There are only three worthy winners among all these dozens of countries, scores of cultures, and millions of people?
ILN (100 D)
20 Nov 13 UTC
(+1)
Moral of the story, if you ever do wrong, and amas a fortune, by no means donate it to good causes, you are an asshole for life with no chance of "redeeming" yourself, might as well spend all your money on hookers and booze.
Putin33 (111 D)
20 Nov 13 UTC
A guy from Peru just won it a couple years ago. 2 from Chile and 1 from Guatemala also have won it. A bunch of Americans have won it in the past.

So do we need quotas for each continent, would that mollify you?

Putin33 (111 D)
20 Nov 13 UTC
Maybe the prize has an obligation to give it to an America every 5 years (while simultaneously managing to find time to award sufficient numbers of Asian, African, and Latin American writers) - else it will be called a 'joke' by the google warriors of the world who always need something to gripe about.
Invictus (240 D)
20 Nov 13 UTC
No, I don't need quotas. But I just say it's pretty obvious the prize is a joke when Europe has such a huge advantage in the number of winners relative to the entire rest of the world, even up to the present period. Is this so hard to understand?
krellin (80 DX)
20 Nov 13 UTC
Why is Putin making sense? What is wrong with me?

Go get 'em, Tiger!
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
20 Nov 13 UTC
"How can a bunch of Norwegians be expected to effectively judge world literature?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_in_Literature

In fairness, a Norwegian has only won 3 times.

That being said, the French lead the way with 15, and if you count American and British Lit winners together, then the English language has the most Nobel Laureates in Literature by far.

What's more, go outside Europe/America, and no country has won it twice except Chile & South Africa (which you can arguably count as being part of "Team English Literature/Language" anyway.)

...

As much as I love Western Literature and, with Americans and British writers combined, I think the English Language Canon can match up with any on the planet or in history...

That's pretty biased.

Granted I'm not really into Eastern Literature--mostly just because I'd rather explore the Western Canon first and get to the East later, it's not inferior, it's just that the two traditions are wildly different--but come on...

You CAN'T defend the Nobel Prize Committee on that one, Putin.

"Do you have any basis to say that great literature is coming out of China or Indonesia or Nigeria?"

Indonesia and Nigeria I'll punt on...and China...well, I'm sure something good's being written there, I can't imagine Chinese literary tradition's just stopped, even if I don't know much about it, it, like China/the states that make up China are still one of the longest-lasting traditions in terms of the written word...

But how about Latin America, Putin?

Mexico's only won once--there aren't Mexican writers which are deserving?
Ditto Colombia.
Ditto Peru.
Brazil? Nothing.

And Latin American Literature is RICH with deserving candidates.

More telling still?

Except for Egypt and Turkey--no winners from the Middle East.

No Israelis OR Iranians OR Palestinians?

I can give you famed Israeli poets...but whatever side of the political fence you're on, conflict generally brings out great literature, and no region has seen more post-WWII conflict than the Middle East...

No one is worthy of recognition?

But therein lies the problem, and the reason I don't value the Nobels all that much--

They ARE political.

Give it to an Israeli and Iran will howl; give it to a Palestinian or an Iranian or any anti-Israel Arab state and Israel will go nuts. The Nobels want to avoid that little fiasco, so no awards for that region.

Meanwhile, as a coda to this...

A list of great authors who were eligible for a Nobel and never won:

Seamus Heaney, the great poet and translator of a modern translation of "Beowulf."

John Steinbeck, who wrote "The Grapes of Wrath," "East of Eden," "Of Mice and Men," "The Red Pony" and other now-canonized classics.

Toni Morrison, author of arguably the best novel post-"To Kill a Mockingbird" with "Beloved," as well as "The Bluest Eye" and "Song of Solomon."

Philip Roth, arguably (I'd argue for it) the greatest Jewish-American novelist of all-time, with the famed-and-canonized "Portnoy's Complaint" as well as "Operation Shylock" and a huge body of well-respected American literary material.

Henrik Ibsen (oddly enough, a Norwegian) who wrote "A Doll's House," "Hedda Gabler," "The Wild Duck," "Enemy of the People," and other examples of late-19th/early-20th Realism...after Shakespeare, one of the world's most performed, studied and respected playwrights.

Graham Greene, who I've never personally read, but I'll include as he's a pretty famous British author, so perhaps some of our British WebDippers would like to vouch for him.

Thomas Hardy, author of one of the greatest English language novels of all-time, "Tess of the D'Urbervilles," as well as "The Mayor of Casterbridge," "Jude the Obscure," "Far from the Madding Crowd," and other classics.

W.H. Auden, one of the greatest English language poets of the 20th century.

Leo Tolstoy (hated Shakespeare and Chekhov and a Libertarian Socialist, so you might like him, Putin) who I REALLY shouldn't have to say wrote "War and Peace" and "Anna Karenina," but I will for completeness's sake...and the man who argued for Shakespeare and against Tolstoy's statement that the Bard was crap...

George Orwell, in his essay "Lear, Tolstoy and the Fool" (oh, and he might also be a bit famous for writing "Animal Farm," "1984," "Shooting an Elephant," and like it or not being one of the most socially-relevant and talked about writers of the last century) was also denied a Nobel Prize.

Anton Chekhov, whom our old friend Tolstoy ALSO hated (I'm starting to doubt his taste in playwrights) and who wrote not only some of the most groundbreaking works of his era such as "Uncle Vanya," "The Seagull," and "The Cherry Orchard" but some of the most famed short stories of all-time such as "Ward No. 6," likewise--no Nobel Prize.

Vladimir Nabokov, who wrote "Lolita," frequently cited as one of the best novels of the last century (and a novel I wish wasn't as expensive at B&N) didn't win one.

Marcel Proust, behind "Swann's Way" and others in his Remembrance of Things Past/In Search of Lost Time (I've seen both translations) series, and considered one of the pre-eminent Modernist stylists? No Prize.

James Joyce, who I again REALLY shouldn't have to say wrote "A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man," "Ulysses," "Dubliners," and "Finnegan's Wake" because you all should have read at least one of those by now and either have been blown away by the amazingness of it all or else howling in rage at this man's making everything so damn complicated, stylistically and otherwise, and an internationally-renowned author? No Nobel either.

Jorge Luis Borges, a great Argentine short story writer...who also supported right-wing Latin American dictators, but then, it's not as if the list of those awarded Nobels is exactly clean, either.

Ezra Pound who...I hate as much as I've ever hated any writer ever for being not only arguably one of the most virulently anti-Semitic poets of the last century AND sadly staining the reputations of Eliot and Hemingway by being friends with them (though that's really their fault for choosing that kind of company, of course, and at least Eliot after WWII seemed to figure out he had a good enough reputation on his own and didn't need the baggage that came with Pound) AND wrote speeches for Mussolini and rooted for Axis victory in WWII...yeah...he's possible the modern author I hate MOST as a person, and I'd love to kick him twice in the balls...but yeah...the man's poetry and literary criticism on their own merits DID deserve a Nobel...even if you take out the ones which are tainted with that whole "Fuck the Jews Goddamn! I hate Jews!" vibe.

Mark Twain, whom Hemingway credits as the founder of American Literature and...that's being figurative and I disagree, but if we forget the pesky facts, Twain is where a lot of the IDEA of American Lit starts...that is, when most people think of things that distinguish American Lit--fiercely individualistic characters, examining race with as much intensity as British Lit focuses on class (both cover both topics, of course, but I think it's fair to say Brit Lit is more famous via Austen, Dickens, Hardy, D.H. Lawrence and others for examining class whereas American Lit is famous for examining race relations), embracing an untamed wilderness of possibilities (and possibly committing atrocities to get that untamed wilderness)...while Melville, Poe and other great American writers before shouldn't be overlooked, it's Twain that creates the American ideal of literature, and also contributed some great observations on atheism and other topics...and, of course--no Nobel Prize.

Oh, I quickly mentioned D.H. Lawrence, didn't I? Of "The Rainbow," "Women in Love," "Sons and Lovers" and, maybe most famously, "Lady Chatterley's Lover" fame, the last of which was featured in arguably one of Britain's most important legal cases involving censorship and literature...and, while the man was dead and gone before Penguin Publishing won the case...they and he won the case, striking a huge and tangible blow for literary and public expression. One of the Modernist era's true titan among titans in terms of British authors (he also spent extensive time in America, where his New Mexico Ranch still exists, Australia, and parts of Europe) and, of course...no Nobel Prize.

To break up the sausage-fest and give some ladies the spotlight:

Virginia Woolf, author of "To the Lighthouse," "Mrs. Dalloway," "The Waves," and other ground-breaking works of works focusing on character's psychologies and thoughts and GASP! unlike Austen, not taking the Happiness Begins and Ends with a Man/Marriage stance (Austen doesn't always take that stance, but takes it far, far too often.) Oh, yeah. No Nobel for Mrs. Woolf.

Angela Ansbury, writer of "A Raisin in the Sun" and other great African-American works. No Prize.

Maya Angelou, another great African-American writer and arguably one of our greatest living writers in America today...no Prize.



Look at those names, and look at the list of writers who DID win the Prize.

Some, like T.S. Eliot and George Bernard Shaw (who accepted at the behest of his wife who insisted it'd be an honor to Ireland), are well-deserving and immediately recognizable as being so.

Some, like Winston Churchill, are there because...well, he was Winston Churchill, he could write whatever he wanted post-WWII and get accolades (which isn't to say his writing wasn't good--I haven't read the works that won him the Prize--I'm just saying, like Eisenhower winning the Presidency, both won their awards/stations because they came out as legends-among-men after WWII.)

Aaaaaaand some you've never heard of ever in your life, and you look around at others, and ask them, and THEY haven't heard of them, professors haven't heard of them...

So, yeah.

The Prize is a joke.

I could go on listing writer snubs (or, more nastily, argue some who won their Prize didn't deserve it compared to others) but that's enough.

Shakespeare was one of several popular playwrights in his day...
By the Restoration he was a little more popular...
By the Enlightenment he was more popular for some plays, less popular for others...
From the Romantic era on he's been steadily increasing in popularity until he's the titan he is today.

I guarantee the names I listed will be read and honored long after MANY Nobel winners have long been forgotten (you could argue with some of the earliest not-so-famous or canonized writers, this is already happening.)
Putin33 (111 D)
20 Nov 13 UTC
(+3)
Only a matter of time before this got Obi-spammed. Thread officially dead.
mapleleaf (0 DX)
20 Nov 13 UTC
(+2)
@obi - tl;dr

Get a girlfriend, you fucking loser.
Sylence (313 D)
20 Nov 13 UTC
@Invictus
The mistake you make (and as Putin a o have more or less argued) is that you expect and demand that an honour, a distinction, a special recognition can only be awarded to someone being the *winner* of an exactly defined contest - such as a 100m-race.

When a contest, a match, is put up, a set of rules are agreed upon, judges are appointed, and contestants, teams are invited, the idea is that, after the trial is done, it shall be possible to, with no *bias*, proclaim a *winner* who might then also receive a *prize* (apart from the honour).

But such a thing as a literary award is not such a contest. You cannot expect that it should be unbiased. The only reasonable sense you might demand of it to be "unbiased" is that the judges really want to merit what they really appreciate as *literature* and aren't swayed in their assessment by factors that should have no bearing on what is the proclaimed intention of the prize. Then we could speak of corruption.
If the Swedish Academy can more easily find and appreciate literature in relation to how close it is to the language and experience they share and understand, this is completely in the nature of things and it would be foolish and indeed deeply *corrupt* to make out as if it is and could be any differently.
They cannot and should not identify themselves with a of role of being world arbiter of what is good literature. That's where it becomes a *joke*. To the extent they hearken and identify themselves with such demanding expectations as Invictus voices here they become a joke.

Indeed... I know not really the Swedish Academy... I don't care much for it... I don't know how much this institution in itself is to blame for the thing that it occasions.
Namely precisely this - that people insist on considering it as a world police or schoolmaster for to tell people what is good literature.

For me having very much devoted my life to the written word, it is damned irritating to put up with this spectacle every year, where suddenly someone, previously unknown to the public, is awarded the *Nobel Prize of Literature* and so translations are hurried, bookshop shelves are filled with the works of this author and every literary wannabe has "a guilty conscience" for "not (yet!) having read this indispensable writer"
SYnapse (0 DX)
20 Nov 13 UTC
Obi, I agree with your post except for the fact that Churchill's book on WW2 was deserving of the prize, not because of Churchill's great prose or literary ability, but simply because he wrote one of the most factual accounts of the war from the POV of the British, which is historically valuable (if you haven't read it, you should.) And while I agree with Tolstoy, Orwell, or Hardy; I don't agree with Joyce or Heaney. I guess literature is such a subjective thing it's difficult to give out a prize for it.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
20 Nov 13 UTC
Putin, mapleleaf...

You calling me a thread-spammer is like Elliott Spitzer criticizing someone for picking up a hooker.


51 replies
steephie22 (182 D(S))
18 Nov 13 UTC
Saving vs investing
Thoughts? Personal approach?
Short and sweet.
46 replies
Open
swagspencer70 (0 DX)
20 Nov 13 UTC
Mods Suck!
Haha I was able to make a second account! DC35 was right, it was easy!
6 replies
Open
Randomizer (722 D)
19 Nov 13 UTC
Zimmerman arrested for pointing shotgun at girl friend
George Zimmerman arrested again on multiple charges for threatening his girl friend with a shotgun. If this had happened before the trial it would have established of history of solving problems with violence.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/18/justice/florida-george-zimmerman-arrest/
44 replies
Open
kestasjk (95 DMod(P))
18 Nov 13 UTC
(+11)
Forum mod issues
Hi all, just writing about some changes to the mod team structure and welcoming back some extra help:
101 replies
Open
steephie22 (182 D(S))
19 Nov 13 UTC
Is there any unbiased (in a not too strict sense) Nobel Prize?
What it says on the tin.
16 replies
Open
krellin (80 DX)
18 Nov 13 UTC
(+1)
The First Amendment
see more below:
31 replies
Open
shield (3929 D)
19 Nov 13 UTC
Can you cut your own support?
Example
A Paris moves to Picardy
A Brest support Paris to Picardy
A Gascony moves to Brest
4 replies
Open
ckroberts (3548 D)
19 Nov 13 UTC
Tablet question
I need advice on buying a tablet.
29 replies
Open
sirKristof (15 DX)
16 Nov 13 UTC
Bouncing yourself
Recently when trying to bounce myself, my enemy supported on of my units against the other and the bounce didn't work! Is that what's supposed to happen? I thought your units don't fight each other
38 replies
Open
faker (100 D)
19 Nov 13 UTC
NEW IDEAS, AND BEGINER HELP
please use this thread to help beginers etc. Or to discuss about new ideas before posting...
0 replies
Open
hecks (164 D)
12 Nov 13 UTC
Comics!
The missus is teaching a college-level art history class, and has reached the unit on comics, both comic books and comic strips. She requests your thoughts on the following question: What single work/artist would you say has had a major impact on the development of comics as an art form?
46 replies
Open
swagspencer70 (0 DX)
19 Nov 13 UTC
SWAG
yolo
1 reply
Open
Styje (266 D)
18 Nov 13 UTC
Anyone here follow Monstercat?
To the Stars by Braken is a favorite of mine - https://soundcloud.com/monstercat/braken-to-the-stars
1 reply
Open
ILN (100 D)
19 Nov 13 UTC
Vigilantes oust drug cartels.
Citizens of a town in Mexico, fed up with drug cartels, mass kidnappings, murder and extortion take action against drug cartels and corrupt police. Federal government sends army http://www.newsdaily.com/world/3ca94ee88cce3438ac68ebcbe109d335/vigilantes-seize-town-in-western-mexico
14 replies
Open
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
18 Nov 13 UTC
Rob Ford
Probably the greatest story ever. We'll all be joking about him someday.

http://nesn.com/2013/11/rob-ford-goes-to-cfl-playoff-game-ends-up-standing-next-to-woman-with-sign-mocking-him-as-mayor-photo/
25 replies
Open
orathaic (1009 D(B))
15 Nov 13 UTC
Sugar and Hyper-activity...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkr9YsmrPAI

Some things will never be resolved.
11 replies
Open
dipplayer2004 (1110 D)
18 Nov 13 UTC
GreatDebate
I haven't given up, Thucy.
2 replies
Open
krellin (80 DX)
18 Nov 13 UTC
50 Shades of Herpes and Cocaine
If you are not yet convinced that eReaders are the supplier format for modern reading....
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2509288/50-Shades-Grey-library-book-tests-positive-HERPES-COCAINE.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490
The Kindle PaperWhite or Nook GlowLight are both excellent choices.
7 replies
Open
hecks (164 D)
18 Nov 13 UTC
Amendment Cage Match, round 1!
I'm sick of hearing about which amendments people like the most and which they like and which ones they hate, so we'll settle this the best way possible: an amendments death match tournament! Details to follow.
26 replies
Open
SYnapse (0 DX)
18 Nov 13 UTC
Writing Thread
Haven't had one of these in a while and it might help cool everyone off. What are you writing/have you written?
11 replies
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krellin (80 DX)
18 Nov 13 UTC
(+1)
Gameshow Japan Style - 40 Minutes to Climax...
http://m.theweek.com/article.php?id=252933

Just read....40 minute climax challenge. YJ's buying his.plane tickets presently...
3 replies
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krellin (80 DX)
16 Nov 13 UTC
(+2)
Mold on a HotDog...
We just found mold on a hot dog in our fridge...which I must say i was quite surprised to find. I truly thought the hot dog was invincible...

My faith in modern food science is slightly diminished. If anyone has encouraging words for me, I'd appreciate it.
138 replies
Open
gnuvag (621 D)
18 Nov 13 UTC
Rules Question - Bouncing
I have a question about bouncing...

7 replies
Open
thehamster (3263 D)
18 Nov 13 UTC
Mods: Live Game Help!
Hey Mods
I rarely bother you
So if you'd be so kind as to check your email. There's a cheating issue in a current live game. Thanks, Hamster
1 reply
Open
Maniac (189 D(B))
17 Nov 13 UTC
Black Pete
Racist or a quaint tradition?
78 replies
Open
Onar (131 D)
18 Nov 13 UTC
I went to high school with this guy
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/long-island-man-arrested-plotting-join-al-qaeda-article-1.1489748

Actually, I used to play diplomacy with him, too. Weird.
8 replies
Open
goldfinger0303 (3157 DMod)
18 Nov 13 UTC
The 2nd Amendment
Everyone has their own opinions on it, but I feel rather strongly that 2nd Amendment rights should be supported, as it is not only necessary for self-defense, but as a measure of self-expression.

This summarizes my view nicely
http://imgur.com/CzkZUiQ
5 replies
Open
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