@Gonnor: Technology and Liberal Arts and Sciences. University of Twente.

Don't know whether abge was being tongue-in-the-cheek or misinformed, or I misunderstood him.

Really? With all your get rich quick sche.ese I would have pegged you for business for sure : )

Out of curiosity, what does "Technology and Liberal Arts and Sciences" actually entail? It seems like that includes literally everything one could study.

Found it. I don't know, you'd likely be better served with a real engineering degree.

It's pretty broad, yes :-)
You learn to approach projects/problems in a multidisciplinary way.

More people seem confused about that one, but the New Engineer-thing has little to do with engineering. It's more in the sense of 'engineering your life'.

Anyways, the Dutch(/European?) education system is quite different from the American I believe, so you might not see what makes it unique and, well, good for me. It's actually sort of based on the American way of doing things, from what I've heard.

In the Netherlands, most of your time is typically spent following lectures you have to follow, with very little choice (well, you can not go, but you can't really pick). They're all related to the same subject, three years long and possibly another 3 years after that (for a Master). It's all rather large-scaled. You're just sitting soaking in during lectures and then studying for yourself.

Now ATLAS (that's the abbreviation) is very much centered around the student. There are definitely things you have to do, but they're on a small scale and *you* do them. You work with projects (not that common in the Netherlands either) and you have a big say in what exactly you do. They ask you what you want to achieve and help you get the means to achieve it. The amount of teachers is relatively huge, etc.

Furthermore, it's a selective study (also quite rare in the Netherlands) and you'll be surrounded by other ambitious students, which I think will be very motivating as well. There's no real downside for me.

Depending on how interested you are, I could consider mailing you the motivation lettre.. It's a little personal, but I'm told it was rather convincing so it might convince you too :-)

Oh steephie believe me I understand exactly why you find such a program appealing. What I'm wondering if such a program actually accomplished what it says it will.

As a side note, I see all programs, including engineering, are 6 semesters. How long are your semesters in Netherlands? In the US we have 8 16-week semesters and that's barely enough time for an engineering curriculum.

It is similar in Europe, but usually it is 6 semesters for BSc, 4 for MSc, and then the PhD. It is very rare to go BSc->PhD in EU (Compare to US where you get MSc as a consolidation prize if you drop out of a PhD). Some schools are 8+2 semesters for BSc/MSc.

There are a lot of things wrong with that, and what Steephie is aiming for is one of the schools that wants to do things differently. Unfortunately, these are all still too new to know exactly how good they are.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter. Your choice of Uni isn't nearly as big a deal as people make it to be. Especially as these universities make it to be.

Interesting. With such short BS programs is there much more incentive to get an MS? In the US many programs have already watered down the BS so much that you are pretty much forced to get an MS. Is it even worse across the pond?

I agree the choice of school isn't all the important (as long as you don't pick on that puts you into enormous debt) but the degree you choose I think is quite important.

I'm studying electrical engineering (6*12 weeks bachelor an 2*12 weeks master) in belgium. First 2 years is mostly theory and exercises. 3th year it shifts more to projects, still theory though. Master year is mostly projects and thesis.
In my experience, you learn how to tackle new problems by solving them. And that's the focus of my studies. You also get a good common basic knowledge.
Looks like ATLAS is for people who also need to learn more on social levels and need more 'handholding'. True, you have more freedom in chosing your projects, but it seems to me you'll lose a lot of good knowledge and learning how to learn as the focus shifts to you as a person instead of the engineering part, the rest you have to figure out yourself, by either going to the lessons or studying by yourself. I mostly did the latter haha, I'm not that good of a student.

What I'm thinking of doing is after this year, I have my master and going to a business/managing school to learn the other stuff.

Ah, but we don't have debt across the pond.

As for MS, it depends on the degree. For the more sciencey fields, a MSc is the minimum, with some fields making it hard to get a job without a PhD. For engineering a BSc is usually enough. I finished the 4 year BSc, and dropped out of the 1 year MSc because I didn't need it at all.

No idea what it's like in non-STEM fields.

@abge, he'll probably can go to other programs after his bachelor. The system here is quite loose on that. They check which courses you already did, scrap those in the new program, and you only have to do the rest.

6x12 weeks means your BS is barely half as long as in the US! How do you fit everything in?

i mean 6 weeks 12 + exams, so 2 semesters in a year

6x 12 weeks + exams haha

How long are exams?

With the degree for my study, you can do nearly every Master at Twente, which I think is quite telling. You can't do medicine and I believe there was one other exception.

It steps up the pace, so it doesn't suffer that much from being 'broad but shallow'.

So as a degree, it will serve me fine and as a study, it's more than I could wish for. Rather than school being the inhibiting factor it is now, I can do something with all my ambitions.

Will players in this brave new game be able to say whatever they like without any standards ? No ? Might be an idea to budget for defending libel / defamation actions

Let me guess, the game is set in a kindergarten playground and.......

....enter Pollyanna..... Played by...our host, Steephie...chased by a bear....

Say what you want. As far as I'm concerned, you and I prove that age and maturity are not mutually inclusive.

Oh Beamish Boy, please don't limit your comparison of yourself to only me, if your immaturity were of no consequence to your ego then I think thou dost protest too much in denial and strive too much to assert some self serving notion of superiority.
Now if you're well behaved and eat up all your vegetables and rice pudding we'll have Nanny explain some adult concepts to you in an amusing bed time story, you are dismissed, so run along like a good chap

@abge 1 month studying plus 1 month exams. average about 6-7 courses in a semester

Major, it appears your sole purpose for entering this thread was to remind us you are an idiot. Do not worry we hadn't forgotten.

Gonnor, thanks. That makes more sense now.

And there i was worried you didn't love me like before Abgemacht

Surely you can see the irony of using a childish tactic to do a cross-thread ad hominem, calling me a child, because you disagree with sincere advice I offered you, trying to offend me because you believe people should not try to offend eachother?

You redefine hypocrisy.

steephie what do you want to do after your BS?

I don't know. I think having an open mind is probably a good thing there, although I understand the need for some sense of direction, but I have that.

I think there's a reasonable chance I'll be running my own company for a living rather than getting a regular job, which is one of the reasons why, depending on what the situation is then, I might not even need a Master.

Don't focus on the fact that you'll be running your own company. Chances are you won't. Focus on your studies and good ideas will come by themself.

Work on them on your spare time or try to fix them in projects you need to do in school. Like I'm working for my thesis on a lowcost (like in 8bit µcontroller) muscle controlable prosthetic or machine interface to do other stuff, -not sure yet. Another one is a website for a type of package delivery system. Both of them have potential into growing into something bigger, but after school.

+ I recommend a master. it's whole other niveau than bachelor and you learn to do projects and learning by yourself. Stuff we need in the projects, they don't give in the theory. Google is your only friend

I highly recommend an MS program as well, especially if you don't have to pay for it. It's a great opportunity to really learn about one particular topic as well as honing your independent analysis skills.

Plus with grade inflation, soon everyone will have a BS/BA and the a Masters will be the next necessary step in producing employability...