Poor Thucy, so helpless and scared of vigorous men all the time.

@SC over Kennedy/LBJ:

As far as LBJ "bringing Kennedy's vision to life"...

LBJ ONLY was able to bring Kennedy's vision to life because Kennedy DIED.

I have to disagree with your assessment of Kennedy:

"Foreign policy was an abysmal failure, nearly parcipitated nuclear annihilation, bowed too much to the hawks in Vietnam, causing a disastrous decade long war, most of his policies were accomplished by the coalition building of LBJ."

I wouldn't count his foreign policy as an abysmal failure...Bay of Pigs was his worst moment, but as I've already said, everyone has their bad moments as President...

He SAVED the world from nuclear annihilation, the Cuban Missile Crisis was his finest hour, the closest the USA/USSR came to war, and HE got the USSR to blink first...bravo! We give Reagan credit for winning the Cold War, but THAT was the single biggest victory of the Cold War, the USSR would never pose quite the same threat again, in the contest of contests, Kennedy won the duel, his finest hour! :)

(To be fair, Kennedy and his STAFF won, but hey, if we did that, we'd have to include that proviso for EVERY President.) ;)

Erm...you vote for LBJ, who wanted to put hundreds of thousands of troops on the ground...

But you say KENNEDY, who avoided war--and there's actually audio of him talking about how he'd like to stay OUT of 'nam--"bowed" too much to Warhawks?

That "Disastrous decade of war" was perpetrated by YOUR pick, LBJ, NOT JFK...

And finally, it was Kennedy who had the vision for those policies, LBJ did his part later, but as far as Kennedy's policies go, LBJ can be credited with an assist, but it was still Kennedy scoring the goal in my score-book, so to speak.

Also, lest we forget...two extra variables in favor of Kennedy:

1. His oratory power (We all know "Ich bin ein Berliner" and "The eyes of the world now look into space" and "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country") and overall presence and aura...WAY HIGHER and better than LBJ's...

2. Related to one of those speeches--Kennedy is partially responsible for our accelerating our space program...Kennedy vowed to "put a man on the moon before the end of the decade," and, posthumously, he succeeded...so NASA, certainly, and the US space program, owes a debt of sorts to Kennedy.

I havn't heard anyone say corruption didn't exist under grant. There is the valid point that he was not involved in any of it, he had little chance of finding out, and the massive amounts of money being put into southern and western projects at the time made corruption nearly inevitable. I haven't heard anyone dispute that Grant's administration was racked with corruption, but then again it is out of my specialization.

We have had the argument about Washington before, I wont go there.

@Putin:

"Washington was a horrible President and I think even Washington would agree his time as President was a failure."

I don't think he'd agree he was a FAILURE...because...he wasn't...

He'd probably go Jefferson's route, who viewed his pre-Yorktown work (ie, the Declaration of Independence and the like) and other political work as his crowning achievements, and considering his presidency just something of a footnote...

THAT is probably more fitting, but hey--when you've led a ragtag army through numerous defeats, nearly disbanding multiple times, the harshest winter in American Military History at Valley Forge, immortally Crossed the Delaware, and teamed with the French to defeat one of the greatest armies in the history of the World...

Sort of hard to top that. ;)

But he DID so some very good things, and important things, including:

-Watch over the newly-formed nation (unanimously elected, maybe the only man who could've held it all together at that time)

-Establishing a lot of the protocols for the presidency

-Oversaw the gestation period of the laws and Constitution

-DENIED THE CHANCE TO BE CROWNED KING (I can't stress that enough, they DID offer Washington the chance to be king after the Revolution, and he gave the great, immortal answer, "Do you really think I fought George III just so I could become George I?" The importance of that cannot be overstated.)

-Article II doesn't deal with cabinet positions, Washington came up with the concept of a Presidential Cabinet.

So...

No, he wasn't a failure as President at all.

"I wouldn't count his foreign policy as an abysmal failure...Bay of Pigs was his worst moment, but as I've already said, everyone has their bad moments as President...

He SAVED the world from nuclear annihilation, the Cuban Missile Crisis was his finest hour, the closest the USA/USSR came to war, and HE got the USSR to blink first...bravo! We give Reagan credit for winning the Cold War, but THAT was the single biggest victory of the Cold War, the USSR would never pose quite the same threat again, in the contest of contests, Kennedy won the duel, his finest hour! :)"

He didn't "Win" anything. The Cuban missile crisis was caused in the first place as fallout from the Bay of Pigs, and speaking of fallout, a nuclear sub, if it had followed the standard operating procedure in Kennedy's blockade, would have sunk a Russian destroyer (I believe) and touched off a war. Kennedy was lucky to clean up the mess that he himself caused, and in doing so, he made several concessions to the russians. It is hardly a high point, it was an absolute low point.

"Erm...you vote for LBJ, who wanted to put hundreds of thousands of troops on the ground..."

He didn't want to put anyone on the ground, he wanted to focus on the great society, he felt he was obligated to carry on Kennedy's war.


"But you say KENNEDY, who avoided war--and there's actually audio of him talking about how he'd like to stay OUT of 'nam--"bowed" too much to Warhawks?"

How on earth did Kennedy "avoid war." Kennedy escalated US involvement to avoid claims that democrats were soft on communism.

"That "Disastrous decade of war" was perpetrated by YOUR pick, LBJ, NOT JFK..."

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about

"
1. His oratory power (We all know "Ich bin ein Berliner" and "The eyes of the world now look into space" and "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country") and overall presence and aura...WAY HIGHER and better than LBJ's..."

Yes I forgot you value sentiment over substance


"2. Related to one of those speeches--Kennedy is partially responsible for our accelerating our space program...Kennedy vowed to "put a man on the moon before the end of the decade," and, posthumously, he succeeded...so NASA, certainly, and the US space program, owes a debt of sorts to Kennedy. "

So you deny Kennedy is responsible for a decade of violence for the war he escalated, but you give him credit for the space program which won success under LBJ and Nixon

excuse me, it was a US destroyer that should have sunk a Soviet sub if it had followed standard operating procedure. Either way it would have probably meant World War.

My favorite
1. Bush Jr.
2. Obama
3. Bush Sr.
4.Harding
5.Buchanan


:D I'm sorry but I had to get my troll of the month out.

They are the best too! :D

@ Thuc

For the record, the Mexicans started the Mexican-American War. Our dragoons were sitting on the bank of the Rio Grande minding their own damned business, and the Mexicans attacked them. What would you have done?

James K. Polk led what would become the most decisive and rewarding war in American history. We got the entire American southwest. He laid the foundation for America to become a superpower. And he did it in one term.

I'm not a big FDR fan because he started the precedent of wasteful social programs that we are still trying to get rid of, and while his leadership during WWII was good, it was by no means outstanding and was not unique. Any American president would have lead the same way during that war.

I'll never understand how Lincoln is ever included on this list. He's the only President to ever start a Civil war, the only war ever fought on American soil, he did free the slaves but he did nothing for their rights and liberties and was even following a plan to ship them all back to Africa. (Liberia) History books have so misrepresented the truths that horrible presidents are held as martyrs because the truth has been cover over by those who want to change their image.

C-K, how did Lincoln start the Civil War? If I recall aright, it was SC that fired on US troops at Fort Sumter.

1) Abraham Lincoln - The only thing he really did was lead the Union during the Civil War, and his decision-making was not unique or even particularly good.

2) FDR - See above

3) JFK - Didn't really do anything good. He was just a popular president who happened to get assassinated 2 years after he took office

4) LBJ - One of the worst presidents in history. While JFK started the Vietnam War, LBJ escalated it. His "Great Society" programs were also a complete failure.

5) Washington - Yeah, he founded the country. But he didn't do anything during his presidency that is worthy of the top five or even top ten.

6) Truman (before someone says him) - He seemed to have lost his balls during Korea. He should have listened to MacArthur and approved an invasion of China.

@ C-K

Not the only war on American soil:
1) Revolution
2) War of 1812
3) Mexican-American War
4) Indian Wars (if you want to count them)
5) WWII

Sic: You should probably add William Henry Harrison as #5 on your list. While he (probably) wasn't assassinated, he did have the decency to die so soon after his inauguration that he didn't have a chance to do any damage.

"-DENIED THE CHANCE TO BE CROWNED KING"

A bigger fib than the cherry tree hoax.

@Semck, yes that's true but they had apready delared themselves no longer a part of the United States and yet the US continued to stay. At that time each state was similar to it's own country and the had entered the Union by choice. There reason for this was that their whole ecomy was based on a plantation system and they were having it taken away from them without any altenative being established by people who lived far away and were not effected by the decision. Now I'm not advocating slavery or anything like that but I'm saying that you cannot destroy the entire economy of a part of your nation and expect it to be acceptable. That was just one part of it. Another equally important part was the issue of State rights. The confederacy was against a big central goverment that told everyone what to do. They believed in their freedom of that of a President. Of course that didn't include everyone but that's the way the world is. I'm just saying that a good leader finds ways to satisfy all those involved that the actions takedn are in the best interest of everyone and Lincoln failed to do that. Also the idea that he did it for a noble cause doesn't hold merit when history clearly shows that the Americans did absolutely nothing for the former slaves so clearly this was not their motive. Their motives were strengthening the hold of the central government of all of it's peoples. Lincoln was one in a long line of American presidents who did the bidding of the rich 1% of America.

"History books have so misrepresented the truths that horrible presidents are held as martyrs because the truth has been cover over by those who want to change their image."

No, rather this anti-Lincoln crap is peddled everywhere and you Confederate symps pretend like you're sticking it the man by repeating it. You repeat the lie about Liberia when he never believed the Colonization plan was ever feasible and he certainly wasn't planning on doing this after the war. It's amazing how Lincoln & Grant are treated by Americans.

"When southern people tell us they are no more responsible for the origin of slavery, than we; I acknowledge the fact. When it is said that the institution exists; and that it is very difficult to get rid of it, in any satisfactory way, I can understand and appreciate the saying. I surely will not blame them for not doing what I should not know how to do myself. If all earthly power were given me, I should not know what to do, as to the existing institution. My first impulse would be to free all the slaves, and send them to Liberia, -- to their own native land. But a moment's reflection would convince me, that whatever of high hope, (as I think there is) there may be in this, in the long run, its sudden execution is impossible."

written in 1854.

Now shut up about Lincoln.

At that time each state was similar to it's own country and the had entered the Union by choice.

What was the title of the Articles of Confederation again? Oh right, Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union.

And that's why there was such an intense federalist/anti-federalist debate, because they all knew they could withdraw if they didn't like what the feds did at any point.

The lengths slavery lovers will go to defend secession. Amazing.

Good God no one knows shit here. Obama's name even being considered here is a joke. Expanding the wars, assaulting First Amendment, giving himself the exclusive power over our lives (assassination of American citizens), expanding the power of the Presidency, shitting on religious freedom, expanding the war on drugs, expanding the federal government, getting more involved in the bedroom (forcing of contraception and gay rights) [why is the government involved in marriage anyway]. Lincoln was a total sham, detaining of American citizens indefinitely, stoking the Civil War, and near inability to win it once he started it, Emancipation Proclamation a total farce (only freed slaves in the Confederacy and not in the Union), and simultaneous expansion of the Executive. FDR may be the worst President of all time... his policies didn't help American recovery from the Great Depression, the return of the million troops from war spurred recovery, he created a vast welfare state that does nothing but hurt the poor and help the rich, he was the single worst offender in American history of turning the Executive into a tyrant - think court packing. At the very least he let the Congress decide whether to send our troops to war. Wilson was a known racist and his terrible diplomacy lead to German hostility toward the rest of Europe. Anyone ever heard of Wilsonianism, calling for the forceful spread of democracy throughout the world and the beginning of the era of our involvement in foreign affairs. If any of you have any sense (which I doubt), and you hate George Bush for Iraq and Afghanistan (as any sensible person should) then you should hate Wilson. Wilson hated our system of checks and balances, he established the God-awful Federal Reserve, and was the first to implement world government systems intent on driving out nation states. LBJ a joke that I shouldn't even have to go into: Vietnam and expansion of welfarism designed to reduce the mobility of the poor and designed to break up black families and destroy black potential. Reagan is almost golden except his excessive government spending created vast deficits and debts. Also, JFK's foreign policy was a joke.

Lol. So it was written it must be true? We all know politicians never lie. If he was so concerned for their well being then why were they not allowed citizenship or any rights at all?????. And don't tell me to shut up please. You're on a computer somewhere far away and I think that if a man is going to tell another man to shut up it should only be done to his face. So let's be civil. To do otherwise is to act like a punk.

I also stated clearly that I don't advocate slavery nor am I even an American but I get sick of American propaganda. That's a typical response. Anyone who disagrees with the American version is a slave lover then a communist and now they're terrorist. Freedom sure is sweet isn't it Putin?

"Good God no one knows shit here."

Then who are our greatest Presidents, pray tell? Let me guess. CALVIN COOLIDGE, lololoz.

"Anyone who disagrees with the American version is a slave lover then a communist and now they're terrorist. Freedom sure is sweet isn't it Putin?"

You're the one making nonsense up in order to defend a government whose sole objective was to make giant land grabs to expand slavery, and who seceded because they couldn't even countenance popular sovereignty, let alone the idea that slavery shouldn't exist north of the compromise line.

J.D. Rockefeller?

"If he was so concerned for their well being then why were they not allowed citizenship or any rights at all?????"

Grant was able to expand their rights thanks to the efforts of Lincoln in crushing your heroic Confederacy.

And the rights and citizenship of the former slaves? Pleased my enlightened american patriot, explain that to me. I'm ignorant on the reasons why it took so long for them to become part of your great free society. Please enlighten me.

"My" confederacy? How do you get that? I live in Italy? I don't think we were ever confederates. Fascists? yes but confederates no.