Forum
A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
Page 849 of 1419
FirstPreviousNextLast
Putin33 (111 D)
25 Jan 12 UTC
Ranking should take into account etiquette, if possible
Seriously, people who are losing and decide to delay the rest of the game an hour by never confirming moves need to be given a ghost rating death penalty.
93 replies
Open
Poozer (962 D)
25 Jan 12 UTC
Can someone explain why a unit was not dislodged to me?
Game is here: gameID=77697

Thanks.
9 replies
Open
Troodonte (3379 D)
24 Jan 12 UTC
Gunboat - new game
WTA, anon, 36h phases (WITH COMMITMENT TO FINALIZE)
400-500 D buy in
Who is interested?
19 replies
Open
dexter morgan (225 D(S))
23 Jan 12 UTC
A few questions for pro-life/anti-choicers
Hopefully a civil conversation based in logic... not simply "it's immoral" - but why? ...and why is it not something that a person can decide on their own? (see inside)
Page 2 of 7
FirstPreviousNextLast
 
dexter morgan (225 D(S))
23 Jan 12 UTC
@Zachattack, Thank you for your post.
As I have to run, and as I hope that some of my response to fulhamish will clarify some of my position, I will be brief for the moment.
"I hope you don't mind me answering a question with a question, because your article proposed that consciousness doesn't even occur until later in a child's life, so with that in mind, should an 'unconscious' baby outside of the womb be able to be 'aborted'" My answer can be found in my response to fulhamish. I want to say further that I support euthanasia - both voluntary under any circumstance and involuntary (decided by family caregivers) in cases of unrecoverable severe brain damage (no higher thinking) or brain death. I do not support infanticide simply as a reproductive choice. That is over the top.

Babies do not form memories in the way that we usually think of things like that... for example it is no accident that no one remembers their first years of life (even when young)... and to a large degree, the brain is, for the lack of a better word, mush prior to birth and for some weeks after... If the brain was fully realized, simply getting squeezed out of the mother would, as I understand it, cause irreparable brain damage. Further, the fetus is in a low oxygen environment (low blood oxygen) and is heavily sedated during its time in utero. I do know, on the other hand, that my dog remembers things - quite specific things. As far as self-awareness, by the way... I do agree that that is a sign of advanced thinking... studies show, though, that several animals beyond humans have some level of self-awareness - including dolphins, gorillas, orangoutangs, chimps, elephants, pigs, and, surprisingly magpies. I'll find the link and post it later. (it has to do with a mirror test) Dogs, by the way, fail the test. Also, elephants mourn their dead - even returning years later to the bones of their relatives and caressing them and "crying" (moaning). Amazing.

"I should have to be responsible for those actions and pay the consequences." While, yes, I believe there should be consequences for poor decisions (regret usually is present)... I don't believe that a child should be a "consequence"... frankly this answer (which I've heard before certainly) is alarming to me. i.e. if punishment is the order of the day, a child is a very poor lever for that... and a poor reason to go through with having the child. The results of abuse and neglect probably often follow.

I found your response about consultations to be reasoned and measured. ...as was your post in general. Thanks.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
23 Jan 12 UTC
First, I'd like to mention that octopodes are extremely intelligent and are decently self-aware.

Second, l'd like to give this quote the biggest +1 I can muster:

"I don't believe that a child should be a "consequence"... frankly this answer (which I've heard before certainly) is alarming to me. i.e. if punishment is the order of the day, a child is a very poor lever for that... and a poor reason to go through with having the child. The results of abuse and neglect probably often follow. "
dexter morgan (225 D(S))
23 Jan 12 UTC
now I'm really leaving the room... :-) Cheers for now.
Here's the link about animal self-awareness... well, a link at least - I can't find my original better article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test
Note that humans don't pass this test of self-awareness until about 18 months in age.
dexter morgan (225 D(S))
23 Jan 12 UTC
Thanks, abgemacht.
Zachattack413 (1231 D)
23 Jan 12 UTC
Oh, sorry, let me reclarify my position. I knew that was a poor analogy. I was more saying that pregnancy is a result of sexual activity without t he proper protection. When this happens, even if it is an unwanted or unplanned pregnancy I feel like is an outcome of the sexual activity. Now, naturally, there will be people who are unwilling or unable to raise a child and they should not be forced to raise the child. However, I feel like they should have to accept the pregnancy and then place the child up for adoption. Obviously this is not an ideal situation, but i personally believe the child would enjoy it more than the alternative.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
23 Jan 12 UTC
@Zach

What makes you qualified to determine that someone else's fetus would rather be put up for adoption than aborted?

And, more importantly, what makes you qualified to impose all of the inconveniences, emotional strain, and heartbreak of separating from a child that go along with your preference?
fulhamish (4134 D)
23 Jan 12 UTC
@ Zach, I thought that you were talking about multiple abortions, silly me.

Of the abortions reported in 1999 to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC), 26.2% of women who aborted had experienced one previous abortion; 11.2% had two previous abortions, and 7.5% had three or more previous abortions.

The situation may be even worse than this, because the reports that U.S. states make to the CDC are voluntary, and the largest abortion state, California, does not report. Forty-six states do report, and this led to a total count of 861,789 legal induced abortions in 1999. That means that in one year, by the most conservative data available, 64,634 abortions were performed on women who had had three or more previous abortions.
[Elliot Inst News, 19May03]
http://www.physiciansforlife.org/content/view/1252/26/
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
23 Jan 12 UTC
Well, I was trying not to get involved, but since I did, I might as well make a full statement:

I don't think people who try to impose pro-life mentality on others really understand what that entails.

Bearing and birthing a child is an enormous, strenuous task and potentially dangerous task. I can't even imagine it and I'm overwhelmingly thankful I'll never have to. To demand that of a woman for what could very easily been a simple mistake or beyond her control is outrageous, imho. It is especially ridiculous since the man gets off scott-free for these 9 months, despite almost always being at least as responsible as the woman.

Having a child that you aren't ready for is almost always a mistake. Obviously, there are exceptions and there are some people who can rise to the task and have everything be fine. But, this is for the mother (and, hopefully, the father) to decide. Not you or me. Giving a child up for adoption must be an extreme emotional struggle, even if the mother never wanted the baby; that is not a hardship I would wish on anyone. Perhaps even worse is raising a child you didn't want to have.

I feel I should mention that a number of people in my lives were adopted and I love all of them dearly. But, for every child who is adopted into an amazing family, countless more aren't. Despite being incredibly blessed by the people who I would have never known if not for adoption, I really can't support it as a cure-all alternative to abortion. This may seem like an odd view to take, but I see it no different than wishing to see impoverished nations be more affluent, even though that also could have meant some people I know wouldn't have needed to be adopted.

Obviously, people shouldn't be running around having unprotected sex, with children being one of the reasons why. But, I really don't feel that the arguments against abortion come anywhere close to the arguments for it (depending on the circumstance), when you really stop to think of the implications of having an unwanted child. And, quite frankly, unless you plan on taking and raising that child yourself, I don't think you have any business telling a woman she has to keep it.

fulhamish (4134 D)
23 Jan 12 UTC
So abge you make a direct negative correlation between the incidence of abortion and that of child abuse?
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
23 Jan 12 UTC
Well, clearly if you're having fewer children, the incidence of child abuse will drop. But, that's not my point.

My point is, overall, fewer people suffer if there are fewer unwanted children being born. Does than mean every unexpected child is unwanted and should be aborted? Certainly not. But, I do think that the mother (and, again, hopefully the father) are in the best position to decide if they can appropriately raise a child. And, if they can't, I think abortion is usually a better option than adoption, given the emotional stress for the mother and child of adoption.
Zachattack413 (1231 D)
23 Jan 12 UTC
See abge, you just hit on one, actually two, of my fundamental problems with abortion. I am most certainly not qualified to determine whether a foetus would prefer to be adopted over aborted. But Then, who is qualified to determine a foetus would rather be aborted than adopted.

Second, I agree but that there would be emotional stress and pain to give up your child for adoption because of the bond that is formed. However, couldn't there be even more stress when a mother realizes she killed that bond?

By the way, dex, I will definitely look at that later today cause I find that fascinating! By the way, does it mention at what age these species first become self aware?
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
23 Jan 12 UTC
@Zach

1) I'm not sure anyone is qualified, which is why it should be left up to the parents.

2) You've killed the bond whether through abortion or through adoption. You most likely will never see that child again. The difference is, with abortion your hormones have barely changed and you've formed no real attachment. With adoption, your hormones have gone baby crazy, you've spent a number of months carry for another living thing that's completely dependent on you, and you've put yourself through extraordinary pain to deliver it.
fulhamish (4134 D)
23 Jan 12 UTC
What you said was that abortion will reduce the incidence of unwanted children and therefore child abuse, a negative correlation.

Here are the figures for child abuse in the USA - http://www.childhelp.org/pages/statistics (has anyone perchance the figures going back to 1973? This will help to further constrain the matter)
Here are the figures for abortion - http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-unitedstates.html

You will appreciate that they have both increased together. Now I am not saying that correlation is causation in this case. But I do respectively point out that the basis of your argument appears flawed.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
23 Jan 12 UTC
I would like to point out that your reading comprehension skills are lacking, at best.

1) As I clearly said, my argument is not that abortion is good because it leads to less child abuse. My argument is that it leads to less suffering overall. This includes: the child, the parents, and society overall that has to deal with over population, a potential increase in crime and poverty, and the cost and bureaucracy of adoption/foster care.

2)The first graph shows child deaths due to abuse, not child abuse. The second table shows that abortions have *decreased*. So, not only did you misinterpret both sets of data, but it actually correlates exactly as I said it should (even though, again, that's not the basis of my argument).

Would you like to try again?
Maniac (189 D(B))
23 Jan 12 UTC
I do not and never will have a static position on abortion and frankly I'm amazed that anyone can see this as a black and white issue. For example Abge raises some great points about it being wrong to make a woman carry a baby that she does not want, fair enough, but let's test that logic - suppose with two weeks to go until the birth they discover via a DNA test that the baby isn't her husbands but it must be her drunkan stepfather who the mother suspects had been drugging and raping her for years. Following Abge logic an abortion in these circumstances would be fine, but I think we would all be appaulled (or I hope we would all be appaulled), which means that the logic off whether or not to force a woman to give birth is flawed and what we are really talking about is creating some invented cut-off point where on the one side it is acceptable and on the other side it isn't.

I'm sure that 'pro-choicers'; (I hate these lables) wouldn't want to see abortions with only a week to go and many 'pro-lifers' have accepted that early abortions in limited situations are acceptable. Which means like it or not this isn't a discussion about 'playing-God', or the 'right to life' or 'woman's rights' but about a messy comprimise that may be rooted in all the above, but is really about people trying to get the messy comprimise higher or lower - black and white yes or no options are just not on the table anymore.

If someone argues for no abortions once sperm meets egg or abortion on demand up until the cord has been cut then I will stand corrected.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
23 Jan 12 UTC
@Maniac

I think you can follow any argument to an illogical conclusion, but that doesn't mean it's not a reasonable guideline for most situations.
fulhamish (4134 D)
23 Jan 12 UTC
On the table
Reported abortions in 1973 = 744 610, in 2008 the lasy year for complete figures = 1 212 350. So yes abortions have increased since the year of legalisation. The figure for 1998 was 1 319 000,
On abuse the graph showed the number of deaths per day, these have all but doubled since 1998, it would be good to have figures from 1973 to make a direct comparison with the full range of abortion.

Now I am sure that we could both do the analysis but let me assure you that your proposed negative correlation does not exist at any level of accepted probability. Indeed, as I said before, a positive correlation would be the outcome.
fulhamish (4134 D)
23 Jan 12 UTC
@ Maniac, I fully agree and was a similar thought process which brought me from an absolute ''No'' position to one of supporting a 12 week limit. It is not ideal, but I feel like a line must be drawn somewhere.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
23 Jan 12 UTC
@ful

1) Deaths due to child abuse is not the same as number of incidents of child abuse. Do you not understand you're using the wrong graph?

2) You can't look at the number of abortions. You have to look at the number of abortions as a percent of the population. Seriously, dude.

3) You can't compare different dates. The graph you linked starts in 1998, so your figures on the table for 1973 are irrelevant.

4) This is still a minor point and you are completely ignoring the rest of my argument.

So, let's do this correctly.

In 1998 the abortion rate for the country was 25.1% In 2008, 10 years later, it was 22.2%. That is a decrease in abortions per pregnancy.

We can't use the graph because it shows deaths, not deaths per population, so it is completely worthless for our comparison.

Seriously, dude. Get a grip.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
23 Jan 12 UTC
Let's do it this way:

From 1998-2008, abortions decreased by 8.1%.

From 1988-2008, deaths from abuse increased by 52.4%.

Exact opposite of what you're stating.

Now, this isn't completely correct, because abortions from the past affect the present death rates, but since nowhere does your first source define "child" this is the best we can do.

No matter how you look at it, the sources you reference in no way support the point you're making.
semck83 (229 D(B))
23 Jan 12 UTC
@abge,

I'll post more later, but

"I don't think people who try to impose pro-life mentality on others really understand what that entails.

Bearing and birthing a child is an enormous, strenuous task and potentially dangerous task. I can't even imagine it and I'm overwhelmingly thankful I'll never have to. To demand that of a woman for what could very easily been a simple mistake or beyond her control is outrageous, imho. It is especially ridiculous since the man gets off scott-free for these 9 months, despite almost always being at least as responsible as the woman."

Isn't this being a little patronizing toward the many women, including mothers, and even including mothers who had unwanted pregnancies, who are pro-life?
semck83 (229 D(B))
23 Jan 12 UTC
(PS I mean legally/politically pro-life, not just personally pro-life).
fulhamish (4134 D)
23 Jan 12 UTC
You make a good point about the per capita figures, thank you. I think your rate of 20 plus percent of live births is very interesting in the meantime. Thank you for computing it.
Will get back to you tomorrow with the per capita figures (getting late in London). I will even do the correlation analysis and try to hunt for some abuse rather than death figures, they are however harder to find.
On your argument on a decrease in suffering it depends of course what you choose to include/exclude I think. No doubt you exclude the foetus and, more importantly, its potential. I do know that many handicapped people feel very strongly on this point. I am sorry to tell you that they almost all tend to adopt the opposite position from you.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
23 Jan 12 UTC
@semck

That's a good point. I actually know a women who was pro-life and unexpectedly got pregnant. She decided to keep the child and has raised him very well. I have great respect for that. But, just because she can do it, doesn't mean everyone can. Also, my claim wasn't that no one has thought of these issues, just that they are an important part of the discussion and often overlooked. I don't see how that would be patronizing.
NikeFlash (140 D)
23 Jan 12 UTC
Too bad Tebow isn't in the super bowl, that'd spark a religious debate for you.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
23 Jan 12 UTC
"No doubt you exclude the foetus and, more importantly, its potential."

I do take the fetus into account, which is why I wouldn't support a 3rd trimester abortion. As it its potential, I recently ran out of Spice, so I have no means to determine that.

"I do know that many handicapped people feel very strongly on this point. I am sorry to tell you that they almost all tend to adopt the opposite position from you."

I don't really care that they're handicapped. I don't see how that makes them more qualified at all.
dexter morgan (225 D(S))
23 Jan 12 UTC
"As it its potential, I recently ran out of Spice, so I have no means to determine that. "
love it.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
24 Jan 12 UTC
@ful

"Thank you for computing it."

I computed nothing. I just looked at the table. Seriously, I hope your job doesn't require any sort of data analysis because your inability to understand this graph and table was sickening. Either that, or you thought you could confuse me with fancy charts and numbers, which is probably worse.
fulhamish (4134 D)
24 Jan 12 UTC
@ abge. I similarly worry about you. To deny a rise in abortions and then to quote the ''rate'' of abortion without saying exactly what you were measuring them against is indeed troubling. I was pleased to point out to you that this was a measure against live birth. Thank you again for pointing out that abortion is runing at 20 % plus of live births, it is indeed a significant observation betraying the appaling extent of the issue. I trust that we can all agree on this last point.
I will look at the table further and see if any more useful information can be extracted.
dexter morgan (225 D(S))
24 Jan 12 UTC
fulhamish, mathematically there can certainly be a rise in abortions while a decline the rate... i.e. if the rise in live births is greater than the rise in abortions...

I looked up the latest CDC summary: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6015a1.htm?s_cid=ss6015a1_w
and if you look at Figure 1 you'll see actually that the number, rate and ratio (ratio being against other age groups) for abortions in the 15-44 year age group have *all* declined. (And certainly that age group is the important one as far as being viable for a healthy live birth).

If there are increases in the number of abortions on children younger than 15 than we have a different problem - most likely incest... and, by definition, rape... and if there is an increase in the number of abortions in adults older than 44 than it probably is indicative of an unexpected increase in fertility into what is normally menopause... In neither case (younger than 15 or older than 44) do I think you'd want to see an increase in live births (i.e. abortions in those groups could reasonably be the standard).

Page 2 of 7
FirstPreviousNextLast
 

189 replies
NigelFarage (567 D)
25 Jan 12 UTC
Random Question
What happens if two armies try to retreat into the same territory? Do they have to redo their moves, or get sent somewhere else, or simply get destroyed?
1 reply
Open
Yonni (136 D(S))
24 Jan 12 UTC
Keystone XL pipeline
I only have a very rudimentary understanding of the project and the issues. Does anyone here have a strong opinion on the project and want to enlighten me?
99 replies
Open
Tru Ninja (1016 D(S))
23 Jan 12 UTC
The Ideal Turkey
Everyone has an idea of how they like to see things play out in the first year or two when playing a country. It might be that when someone plays England, the ideal situation for them is a E/F over a E/G where England gets Belgium via convoy and Norway with a fleet capture, a Russian with 3 units in the south and Germany opening to Denmark.
23 replies
Open
SocDem (441 D)
25 Jan 12 UTC
New fast games
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=78793
especially for amateurs
0 replies
Open
JECE (1248 D)
24 Jan 12 UTC
I'm sure this has already been brought up a million times, but
All hail: threadID=444658
0 replies
Open
Sandgoose (0 DX)
24 Jan 12 UTC
Live Gunboat-169
Hello all, if you are playing in this game, there is a long ways until it is over and I have a job interview in about 45 minutes, would there be a possibility to draw this game out? We have been at it for over 2 hours now.
2 replies
Open
Dharmaton (2398 D)
21 Jan 12 UTC
Should 'the system' Cancel games with Any players Missing ! ???
eh ?
33 replies
Open
Yonni (136 D(S))
24 Jan 12 UTC
Fielder to the Tigers
Well, that lineups going to be stupid. Fuck me.
2 replies
Open
hellalt (80 D)
19 Jan 12 UTC
Southeastern European tm needs a substitute
We are the Southeastern European tm.
That is me, dejan0707, Kompole and Hellenic Riot.
We need a substitute ready for the upcoming world cup.
He/she will play if one of the basic members needs to go away for a while.
8 replies
Open
Troodonte (3379 D)
24 Jan 12 UTC
Have a Happy New Gunboat - Finished
gameID=76381
Anoher good game. 3rd draw in a row with Austria twice and Italy once. Again finished allied with Turkey while playing Austria. And again attacked by Italy in A01...
11 replies
Open
KingRishard (1153 D)
20 Jan 12 UTC
Team Southeast USA for World Cup
A team was organized, at least partially, to represent the southeastern USA, but we still need to choose a captain and confirm the players for our team.
21 replies
Open
Sandgoose (0 DX)
24 Jan 12 UTC
What's the top song the day YOU were born?
So I was thinking...what was the top song when I was born...well I am glad to know that it was:
Bryan Adams - (everything I do) I do it for you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGoWtY_h4xo
37 replies
Open
Yellowjacket (835 D(B))
20 Jan 12 UTC
Kill Yellowjacket Invitational
OK, I've tasted enough success. I'd like to make a game for those who have challenged my awesomeness at some point. Point value is negotiable, but I'd like to make it about ~150. Now is your last best chance to be part in handing YJ his first defeat. The following people are guaranteed acceptance into this 24 hour phase, anon, WTA game.
26 replies
Open
JECE (1248 D)
18 Jan 12 UTC
Are you Iberian? Does HISPANIA flow in your veins?
Are you from Spain?
Are you from Portugal?
Are you from Andorra?
Are you or have you ever been a member of the Iberian nation?
31 replies
Open
redhouse1938 (429 D)
09 Jan 12 UTC
Join the Tournament!
See below
50 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
22 Jan 12 UTC
NFL Pick: 'em: Championship Weekend--BRADY, FLACCO, ELI, ALEX...PICK 'EM!
Baltimore Ravens@New England Patiots:
Can Flacco step up, and can Brady's O outmatch Ray Lewis' D?
New York Giants@San Francisco 49ers?
The two hottest teams in football meet, EACH coming off huge upset wins...who grabs the crown here?
22 replies
Open
President Eden (2750 D)
17 Jan 12 UTC
Facebook Networking: The webDiplomacy Edition
So if you've heard of it, there's this social media site called Facebook. It's pretty neat, you make a profile of yourself and communicate with people over the Internet. Well, there's a project to network webDiplomacy people via FB in progress...
83 replies
Open
youradhere (1345 D)
24 Jan 12 UTC
CD Italy
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=74369

Italy in decent position. Be a hero!
0 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
23 Jan 12 UTC
Protip: look closely if a game is WTA
This has been said before - but there is nothing crueler than realizing at the end of a game, to your dismay, that people are "playing for second." What a shame.
10 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
23 Jan 12 UTC
The AFC/NFC Championship Fallout: 4 Great Teams, 2 Great Games, 2 Heroes, 2 Goats...
PATRIOTS: Winning on a day Brady wasn't Brady-like, 5th SB appearance of that era...can they avenge their lost undefeated season?
GIANTS: Eli Manning--better than Peyton with a SB win here?
RAVENS: Did Flacco prove himself Sunday? Evans--TD, or no? Cundiff?
49ERS: Is it fair to lay the blame for the game on Kyle Williams? 2 TDs and 40+ Rushing YDs, BUT 1-for-13 on 3rd down...how do you view Alex Smith?
3 replies
Open
Bob Genghiskhan (1228 D)
23 Jan 12 UTC
EOG for a Gunboat
gameID=78672
To be used when the game is over. There's some good, some bad, and some ugly.
0 replies
Open
Sandgoose (0 DX)
23 Jan 12 UTC
Cure to Cancer?
Hey, have you guys heard about this? Thoughts?

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57358994/calif-hs-student-devises-possible-cancer-cure/
8 replies
Open
Dharmaton (2398 D)
23 Jan 12 UTC
EoG : " January GR Gunboat Live. "
gameID=78549
11 replies
Open
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
18 Jan 12 UTC
What would you like to see instead of SOPA/PIPA
I've been thinking about this for a while, and I can't come up with any effective alternatives. More inside:

77 replies
Open
redhouse1938 (429 D)
23 Jan 12 UTC
I see there are still people talking to TC
I wonder why that is
0 replies
Open
DJEcc24 (246 D)
20 Jan 12 UTC
Are you from or in Asia?
Japan? Korea? Phillipines? Mongolia?
This thread may be of interest to you
10 replies
Open
Page 849 of 1419
FirstPreviousNextLast
Back to top