Yes, I have - and I also choose not to watch TV. I also am aware that 451 is more of an anti-television novel than an anti-censorship novel.

I repeat: if your core belief is that people should make their own decisions instead of blindly obeying a central authority, why do you state that they should not make their own decision to watch TV? Because you dislike TV, or because you believe that the decisions they make should be decisions you *approve* of?

Yes, the UK does have them, though it may be hard to prove anything, from what i've read an investigation is underway.

@sic, i tried fahrenheit but it felt like it was aimed at a specific type of American, which i am not. It didn't appeal to me at all and i couldn't get through the crap about America being great...

I imagine operating the machine is not as simple as an on/off button, and that various different settings could reduce oxygen pumped to the lungs to low enough levels that brain damage could occur. (ignoring the possibility that fluid could build up and need to be removed)

So i'm not sure how easy it would be to create a 'simple' to not switch off alternative...

choosing to watch television has little to do with it. I rail against not personal descision but what television has become. It is a tool of stupification and enslavement. I dont blame people for watching it, I blame the people who choose the programming.

I can talk about the evils of alcohol dependency without beiong some straight-edge nazi

I realize this may not apply to the majority of people, but consider this:

My job consists basically of thinking very hard. After 8-12 hours of this, what's wrong with spending some leisure time watching something completely mind-numbing? I realize that spending your entire life in that state isn't good, but I wouldn't say it's inherently bad, either.

I didnt say there was anything wrong with that

Liability would be more on the nurse's employer for not assureing she was trained on that paticular machine or not providing the proper training.

@abgemacht +1 - I'm the same way. Hell, I even have the TV on while I'm at home working in the evenings. But after a long day, a little Chuck, Burn Notice, Smallville, or Big Bang Theory is just what the psyche calls for. I DVR my shows so I can spread them across the week.

Those machines having enoff safety features and alarms. I suspect the issue was more lack of training. Sic is correct in that throwing more technology at the problem is not the best way to go in this case.

More tech may reduce human error, but it introduces more risk of machine failure and wiht that machine failure comes a need to train the healthcare workers in how to handle *those* emergency situations.

not to mention everyone with a perfectly good ventilator (hopefullly a trained nurse as well) will order the new ventilator because its "better".

Don't condemn an entire healthcare system because of one stupid incident. Anecdotal evidence isn't indicative of any larger trends. The Brits all have healthcare while millions of Americans still don't, and that's what we should focus on, even if the Brits' system has its flaws (this story not being one of them)

While I agree my kneejerk reaction was out of line (Sorry about that, by the way), I disagree that millions of American's don't have healthcare. First, you don't have healthcare, you have access to it. If you mean millions of Americans don't have insurance, you are right. But healthcare is readily available as hospitals are *required* to take care of even those who can't pay. I just don't believe we should have a single social insurance/healthcare system that provides for little choice and doesn't encourage medical advancments because of a lack of a profit potential.

One fault of a for profit system is that it encourages keeping staff at bare bones minimum which only increases the likelyhood of stupid errors. It's not unusual for an nurse to start with reasonable number of patients but end up with a couple of admits swamping him/her to the point of being unsafe.

Yeah, I've heard that. We almost need the hospitals to not be for a profit, but still provide a motivation for advances in healthcare. I'm just afraid that a complete conversion to public healthcare will have the same detrimental effect as the public education system has experienced.

Don't look towards insurance companies for help there. I think you will fine alot advances had come from universities, their associated hospitals, and none profit research groups. Not that I crazy about the ideal of an totaly goverment run health care system. Every one talks about the European type of system but rarely talk about or even considers Japan. Goverment run public education had been doing fine till more recent decades. I don't think goverment in of itself is the main or by any means the only problem there.

Public education was doing decent until the "no child left behind" directive started forcing teachers to teach to a test, and not actually educate their students. All NCLB did was set a bar so low that talented students got neglected because the class idiots and lazy bums had to be taught to the same standard. It doesn't take into account the damage it does to the exceptional students to not allow them to excel.

I agree "no child left behind" has been big mistake. But it was created a quick fix response to a decline in quality of US school systems.

Actually, the "decline of quality" was amongst inner city and lower funded schools. What it did was force *all* schools to teach to the same standard, but it did so at the expense fo schools and students who were already teaching way above that standard.

Case in point, I took Calculus and Physics my Junior year of High School. Now, the same school district I graduated from doesn't offer those classes to a Junior becuase the prescribed program requires them to take a set list of classes to reach that point, some of which have nothing to do with Mathematics or the Sciences. You almost have no elective capability in HS any more.

But we have derailed this thread, so let's let it get back on track.

do american schools not sitll have AP (advanced programs) i think my cousin was in AP maths, which as far as i could tell was like our higher maths class (in Ireland there is very little choice in secondary schools, but you can be in a higher or pass class, a two stream system has existed for a while... no pre-reqs for anything because EVERYTHING follows a syllabus - which is taught for tests - state exams, kinda like graduating from high school i guess)

Yes, we have AP (America's not that far behind :)). Where I live, there are many very good and nationally recognized private high schools--Andover, Roxbury Latin, Milton Academy, amond others) that are dropping AP. These institutions proclaim that AP restricts to what they can teach, and they prefer to go beyond. They have replaced with a standard "Honors" label.

Back on track, I don't know how to run a perfect helath service and if i did i'd probably sell it to the highest bidder...

European systems seem to be ranked rather well, and i'm not surprised to see Ireland being quite behind most of western europe.

I wonder how much is paid per persn for this care, (or how much of gdp is paid for) and i don't think you can claim that US companies develop new technologies for the profitable US market and the EU imports them and pays for them without investing as much BECAUSE the EU companies could just as easily develop the same technologies, and sell at a profit in the US... so overall investment in new tech balances...

Also i don't see how the US healthcare industry could be turning a much bigger profit if it has 'million wihtout insurance' as this would imply a much small customer base (as a percentage of population)...

Also where possible, prevention costs less than a cure, and when you're not paying for your own medical care you are more likely to take a trip to the doctor 'just in case' as it doesn't cost you anything, right?

@acmac, yeah, if i recall correctly everyone in my class was in the honours stream, in fact about 4/8 classes in my year were honours, and while some people would drop back in later years if they couldn't keep up, having the default be higher really means that more people just stuck at it.... (if Irish higher level is the equivalent of american AP - i'll admit that our educational system isn't the best in the world, as it is stuck to it's state exam target...)

forgot to post this link: http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

First, millions of people versus the US population of 350 million. See the percentage is small even at "millions".

As far as going to the doctor for free. Nobody goes for free. There are copays and deductibles and at potentially $800 or more per month for a two person household even on a group discount (when I was covering it all myself, it cost $1500 per month for 2 people) the "free" was anything but even before deductibles and copays.

i don't know how many millions that is, nor do i know what that ranking system is based on.

and i mean in socialist europe you can get free medical care, no? i've never heard of a copays, and i assume decudtable is off your tax, but yes, you don't get free doctors visits, i beleive the insurance company doens't pay for my first €50 in costs... but people who have a low income can avail of a medical card which entitles them to a lot of free stuff http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/health/entitlement-to-health-services/medical_card

so only the poor get free health care in ireland...

@ Sicarus - You're such a stereotypical hippie I don't know whether to laugh at you, hate you, or feel sorry about the terrible brain trauma you received as a child.

What makes you think I'm a hippie

Sicarius is not a hippie, at least how the term is typically defined. For one thing, he's far too uptight ;)

Seriously, though, the general idea of a 'hippie' is a free-love-no-war-lets-all-be-friends type

If I had to put Sicarius in a box - which is as pointless as putting *anyone* in a box, but I digress - he's much more of an anarchist-the-man-is-out-to-get-you-what-the-fuck-is-WRONG-WITH-YOU-MORONS-THAT-YOU-DON'T-SEE-WHAT-I-SEE type.

And I think he'd agree with that ;)

yeah thats pretty accurate as far as stereotypes and boxes go.