still u need to stick around till the end

@Adat: No, I don't know why you alerted the moderators. If it was merely because I took advantage of a CD in the final year of a game, then like I said, I don't know what they can do about it. If it's because of some more serious accusation you'd like to level, I'd be highly interested to hear what that is, because aside from abusing a CD I don't know what it is.

Just one of the hazards of playing live. Good game and i apologize for being brash. I do not think they can do anything either and well they shouldn't. I shouldn't have done it, I apologize.

You played a better game than me -- actively took on Austria and held off France and I until the final turn; I basically picked off all the powers I did by hitting them while they were engaged elsewhere (Germany excepted... and it's pretty obvious why that wasn't worthy of any praise). Good game to you. Apology accepted, though I don't feel you should apologize. Like I said, I would have reacted the same way in your shoes (probably would have been ruder about it, honestly, so I appreciate your civility). And don't sweat the reporting. If you felt it was justified at the time, you should absolutely report it. I just hope there are no hard feelings about this game.

Haha, I hope there are no hard feelings on your end. And, it's all good on my end just need time to cool down (which obviously I have been doing in the past couple of hours) and will probably stay away from live games for a bit like I did the last time something unfortunate like this occurred. It's all good though.

None at all. If you'd like, we could set up a live game sometime and password-protect it to screen out CDers and the like. I love live games when you have seven competent players... it's just tough to arrange that sometimes.

Hey Eden, I don't normally play live, but if I can fit it into my schedule and you'll have me, I'd join you all. You know I won't CD. :-)

Depends when but I'm down for it.

@ President Eden:

You were under no obligation to agree a draw. It is ALWAYS up to you whether you want to vote draw or not. If everyone felt that Germany going CD had ruined the game, you should have voted Cancel. Otherwise, you were perfectly within your rights taking the win.

@ Adat: What did you actually say to the Mods in your email? I'm just curious as to why you contacted them - were you accusing Eden of cheating in some way?

i see no reason to draw here. it's a winner take all game, so what the fuck business does anyone have trying to draw here? YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME

seriously, WHAT THE FUCK is this? this is fucking DIPLOMACY, there should be no option to draw unless there's a real stalemate. i don't see the point of playing if people just want to draw after a few years. man up. play the fucking game. if someone drops out sure it fucks everything up so don't play with flakes and fucking deal with it when it happens. god damn...

Calm down, stinkbomb.

I'm new here, but kinda of have the same sentiment that Stinkbomb expresses (tho not with the same passion ;) I've seen this 'lets draw now, since the game will get down to a stalemate line eventually' attitude all over. Doesn't seem like alot of folks here actually play to win the game, just to play long enough to get a non-7 way draw....preserve our precious points.

The worst is when one (or more) of the players that want a draw, decide they'll draw out the game, not finalizing their orders, making the game go to the max time between turns every time.

I don't mind losing the game--I'm not that good at it really, but I intend to play to win or lose, and consider drawing a loss. If an actual stalemate line develops, then I would think about drawing, but not until then.

(but don't worry folks, I've had enough of online play for now--every game I've played so far has had a NMR/CD affect the outcome, except the current game, where a draw was asked for early, and one of those asking for the draw has decided to extend the game by not finalizing turns..and it's a 36 hour game).

@Xeterog - I can do you one worse. One of the players in a game I recently finished did the same thing (extend the game by not finalizing) and it was a 7-day game.

@Xeterog - here's the game Xeterog referenced:

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=37006#gamePanel

It's pretty clear that Onar tried to hold the game hostage to extort a draw.

@Jamiet99uk - Nothhing much just the fact that i felt the game should have been a draw and then I was not sure if it was something they could look into. I realize now that they cannot and well this is unfortunate but late CDs can be apart of the game. Turkey took advantage of the situation and I do not blame him for doing just that. I just know that w/o a CD Germany there is no way he does what he did. But oh well, I'll get over it and President Eden and I will play games in the future together.

To all the noobs bitching about "extending the game": You agreed to a phase length. You are stuck with it. Stop bitchin about it or stop playin.

Draug +1

@Jamiet: Eh. I see your reasoning, and I don't really have an argument against it. I just know I would have sold Turkey up the river if I'd not been Turkey myself... I try to lead calls for a draw/cancel if someone CDes, and I didn't that time. Adat did call for a Cancel, and I was waiting to see if France/Russia would join in. I feel like I shouldn't have waited.

@stink: The way I saw it, France/Russia/Italy (well, France/Italy, I had figured Russia would be killed off) were punished for Germany's incomprehensible decision to quit, and that just feels wrong to me.

@Xeterog: Since I led the call to draw in that game, I'll go ahead and explain my reasoning behind it. Russia and I actually DIDN'T have a stalemate line, not even close, and we tried to bluff you into accepting a draw because we knew we were about to get our asses handed to us.

@Draugs/Triumvir/Xeterog: I lean toward Draugnar's statement in general, and I just advise you [Triumvir] in that seven-day situation to show the resolve not to cave. But yeah, extending a week-long phase JUST to annoy people into drawing is a pretty bitchy move. I don't think the 36-hour-phase extension was AS bitchy, but it's the same principle.

@ Daug - Your position makes sense but for the fact that there is a "ready" button in addition to a "save" button. In other words, we are not "stuck with it." The game interface specifically contemplates that phases could and would be completed prior to their preset rate.

The fact is people think that refusing to hit ready is somehow an appropriate means of extorting an agreement to a draw. Holding aside the merits of strategy's efficacy, the entire strategy is predicated on the fact that they know they are being annoying.

And considering the only way to discipline annoying players is to publicly shame them, I'd say it's fair to name them in this forum.

@Oskar - If you've been on the forums at all in your short 7 months here, you'll note that the ready button is there for speeding things up if everyone agrees to it, but the fact is that any one is well within their rights to make the phase last it's full term.

Oh, and being a bitter asshole who publicly names someone to try and shame them, says more about you than it does about them.

@Drag: It's still annoying when a player with 4 SC's does not finalize the turns just to draw the game out. True, I signed on for a 36 hour game, and can live with it. But even in global chat they were making excuses for not finalizing...

@President_Eden: Yep, saw the bluff (tho I'm not as aware of the stalemate line I hear about--I know it's there, but I don't know the specifics). I'm happy with the results of that game, despite not winning.

Are you sure they're doing it to draw the game out?

For instance, sometimes when I have a retreat that can only go one place, I still don't finalize. Not because I want to annoy people, but because I like to keep my games on a certain schedule or I needed extra time to talk to someone.

@ abgemacht: He admitted to it.

All in all, I admit I'm being a tad persnickety about this tactic. But the reason why I was particularly annoyed by this instance of its use was that it was the final game of four in a tournament and I wanted it to end so that the next round of games could begin.

Yeah, it was done intentionally. I can confirm it as well.

@gramilaj - dittos to Draugnar. Unless you enjoy playing games where players leave in the middle, take this as a learning experience - and play them out. Throw yourself against the player who wronged, you, allowing the other players to feast on your body, but play it out.

Having said that....CD's are a part of the game. If I read correctly, there are those that feel that a CD should provoke an agreement to draw. I don't agree. It's a random event...or it's an event you helped create by destroying their belief that they could win. Either way, CD's giveth and CD's taketh away. Take it while it is being offered....and watch out in case it comes back alive. AND....if you are another player, part of the game is to adjust your strategy and alliances when you see a CD develop to your detriment. ....

That was a seriously low tactic from Onar.
Its within the rules, but certainly not the spirit.

Whilst I'd always prefer people to finalize when they can, I don't have a problem if they don't. As noted above there are a myriad (always wanted to use that word) of different reasons they might not want to, such as communication, time to think over their moves, or indeed to bluff one of these. However, holding it up as a diplomatic tactic to force a draw? Come on.

@Indy, like I said, the game was over in my opinion. I enjoy challenging diplomacy. Wading through stationary German units to get an incredibly artificial stalemate line doesn't even come close to approximating the real game in my opinion. I saw Germany leave, and Turkey start to make a play for it and thought...Well, if he thinks that's enjoyable or challenging or worthwhile, bully for him, I don't particularly care for the 20 . I had made my opinion of the game clear when I voted on the draw. I was a major power with a strong alliance. Now if Germany had stabbed, that would have been cool.

I play online games to brush up on my tactics for FTF, so in my little world, CDs actually aren't a legit part of the game because they don't happen where diplomacy really matters for me. I don't feel that CDs necessary should provoke a draw, but I also don't feel that I necessarily have to play through what I think of as a totally unbalancing CD. A minor CD, where there's still interesting play in the game can actually be exciting, and introduce lots of new possibilitites, but that game was a matter of forcing my way into Ruhr and Kiel/Helo and making a sprint for Norway (I wouldn't have held STP, but I could have held Norway and Sweden), and moving to Piedmont, then supporting TYR to hold. Just not very interesting, and no opportunity for any sort of repositioning of alliances.

I don't want to make a bad name for myself, I don't make a habit of leaving games. But IMO the game was fininshed but Eden thought the win was worth his time and energy. The only think I feel bad about is Italy's situation. He would have been included in the draw, and I recognize that it was unfair to him to leave.