The first link was about veiled Muslim women being exempt from identification/airport security checks.

i hear dearborne michigan is governed by sharia law

I don't get why some liberals have such a blase attitude toward religious Muslims, who are more reactionary than religious Christians or other groups. Especially liberals who have no problem with bombing Muslim countries to the stone age, but heaven forbid we ban the burqa.

I thought I wasn't a liberal

You claim to be, so explain your position.

For the record I don't support bombing Muslim countries.
"I don't get why some liberals have such a blase attitude toward religious Muslims, who are more reactionary than religious Christians or other groups." - That question shows you don't understand the fundamental principle of power relations in society. Privilege. In a country like France Muslims aren't going to have the same power to oppress people that the Christian majority does. When majority groups start outlawing religious expression by minorities you have a serious problem. Muslim religious beliefs will never become policy. It's very easy for Christian beliefs to do so however.

@Mafia: I haven't been able to find a better foundation for rights than the one referenced in the Declaration of Independence: human rights come from "the Creator."

I don't have a blase attitude toward, religious muslims. I was brought up being taught that religious freedom was a fundamental right of humanity, in a culture that has been persecuted for its religious beliefs throughout the last two millennia. Fundamentalism is in the eye of the beholder. You stated ealier that only "radical muslims" wear the hijab. This is patently false. I work with a woman who does some very risque research on womens studies and womens rights in the Middle East who wears a hijab. It is here religious and cultural belief, she finds it empowering, why is it the states perogative to dictate where she can and cannot wear it.

Outside of a few exceptions. It is not the state's job to tell me what i can believe and what i cannot believe and what I can and can't wear based on my beliefs, I fervently believe that as a real or fake liberal.

And by the way, when did i have no problem bombing muslim countries into the stone age?

What if you don't believe in Him (or Her or It)?

when i said outside of a few exceptions...

I was talking about what i can wear, I can believe anything. I do not believe the state is powerless to deny naked students and people access to schools, nor inappropriate attire

Also yes Santa. The equation between the Hijab, the Niqab and fundamentalism is a false one. I wish I could find this ethnography I read of women in egypt.
It had a lot to say on the topic.

Very easy? Doubtful. Christianity has nothing to do with French laws and they hold laicite above most if not all other principles. What's more likely is more and more allowances will be given to extreme Muslims until they are a law unto themselves. It's not as if it is only majorities who oppress minorities. Some minority groups extract so many concessions from the general government that they are able to hold it hostage, in some cases, they are able to extract the power to veto any decision made by the general government. (I'm thinking of the Yugoslav situation with their 1974 constitution).

putin, the debate is about head coverings, the concession they want is to wear a piece of cloth wrapped a around their heads stipulated by their families religious beliefs as they get a secular education

I don't see that as very likely. And again. We're not talking about huge concessions. I realize you posted a lot of tangentially related links, which you claim contradict that, but the issue at hand is just what people are wearing. I'm not commenting on those concessions. Maybe some of them go too far, maybe some of them do not. But a law banning a certain article of clothing goes too far. Period.

"And by the way, when did i have no problem bombing muslim countries into the stone age?"

Libya. I'm sure you'll say you didn't support that action. "But they'll bitch if we bomb them, they'll bitch if we don't, oh the burdens of being America"., etc.

" I work with a woman who does some very risque research on womens studies and womens rights in the Middle East who wears a hijab. It is here religious and cultural belief, she finds it empowering, why is it the states perogative to dictate where she can and cannot wear it. "

Hoorah for anecdotes. I for one take the leading Egyptian cleric's word for it when he says that the niqab has absolutely nothing to do with religion, and think the Egyptians know very well what the niqab represents when they decided to ban it from schools.
http://www.khilafah.com/index.php/news-watch/middle-east/7772-egypt-purges-niqab-from-schools-and-colleges

But anyway, should veiled women be immune from ID checks at airports? Should Muslim kids be exempt from gym and music classes? Where does your absolutist support for religious "freedom" end?

"in a culture that has been persecuted for its religious beliefs throughout the last two millennia"

Was it only religious Jews who were persecuted? And they were persecuted for being observant Jews, that was really the force behind anti-Semitism? Not simply being Jewish -period - religious or not?

But this issue is broader than just the niqab, as the Gerin said when he proposed the ban. "The burqa is just the tip of the iceberg. The real threat is Islamism". And you said that religious Muslims weren't seeking special treatment. They absolutely are.

You know what, in a very limited sense you're correct. Islamism would be a threat. But just because burqas are the tip of the iceberg, that doesn't mean we have to ban the whole iceberg. We can allow some things, and still draw the line at others.
Secondly, read that sentence again. "The burqa is just the tip of the iceberg. The real threat is Islamism".
Look at what that says it says "There is a threat to our way of life! It's foreigners, and it starts with the way they dress!", and then you come out and say it's not xenophobic. They used the word "threat" in the same sentence with "Islam". Come on Putin, be real.

" the concession they want is to wear a piece of cloth wrapped a around their heads stipulated by their families religious beliefs as they get a secular education"

No, the concession they "want" is to wear a full covering that only barely allows some opening for the eyes. How a garment that completely obscures their identity as people is "empowering" is beyond me. I'm guessing it's the standard "hide the female body completely so predatory men won't harass them" defense. Well yes, if women were unseen and unheard there wouldn't be any harassment I suppose.

Islamism is not the same as Islam. Not all foreigners in France wear niqabs. If your point here is that France (and my extension, me) are being too essentialist and generalizing, it would help if you wouldn't make counterpoints based on essentialism and generalizations.

I'm not saying they're essentialist and generalizing. What I'm saying is painting others as a threat is a well known rhetorical trick to drum up anti-whoever sentiment. And that's EXACTLY what that quote does.

Well, Islamists are a threat. I don't get how this can be denied. Perhaps Canada hasn't been attacked by Islamists, but virtually every other large western country has. Hell, Russia is being attacked daily by them in Inghushetia.

Also, you continually refuse to respond to the point that the equation between head coverings and fundamentalist Islam is a false one. or at least one in which the burden of proof is on you. How do you respond to that point Putin.

Also it's an exaggerated threat, but it's one that sells newspapers.

"No, the concession they "want" is to wear a full covering that only barely allows some opening for the eyes. How a garment that completely obscures their identity as people is "empowering" is beyond me. I'm guessing it's the standard "hide the female body completely so predatory men won't harass them" defense. Well yes, if women were unseen and unheard there wouldn't be any harassment I suppose."

im still talking about the school ban of the hijab which is a head covering

I had an answer to your posts above but it got whiped out, I wont write them again because it wont do any good.

All im going to repeat is i never supported the bombing of Libya, and even if I did it wouldnt have been to bomb muslims, but to protect some muslims from others, I however, never did, and you know it.

And yet again. Even if the equation between fundamentalist Islam and burqas did exist. And even if Islamism were a huge threat to the French way of life (which is also a point based entirely on your speculation of what you think might happen if Islamists get their way, which is also unlikely) even if all those things were true, we could still draw the line elsewhere. And in fact if I were to win this argument, the very thing I'm arguing in favour of (Freedom of Religion), would prevent Islamism from taking over the country. Allowing people to dress themselves as they see fit does not mean that suddenly I have to allow anything and everything that Muslims want to do.

oh yeah and the woman i know is shiite, so I doubt he cares what mr. bigwig cleric from egypt believes

Except I did respond to that point. I linked you to Egypt's ban of the same head coverings and the Egyptian clerics comment about what it represents.

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2010/02/17/100673.html

Why in Egypt is this garment associated with Salafism?

Why is the practice most common in Salafi countries?

http://middleeast.about.com/od/religionsectarianism/g/niqab-definition-faq.htm

"Usually black, spartan and designed to efface personality and physical suggestions, the niqab is part of a full-body covering favored in Middle East countries east and south of the Levant, where the influence of fundamentalist Islam, or Salafism, is more pronounced. These nations include Saudi Arabia, Yemen, the nations of the Gulf Cooperation Council, and the tribal or rural areas of Pakistan. "

@Mafia: that's their (your?) problem, not mine.

And, it happens, it's a remarkably difficult one.