Saddens me that this is where we have to end it. I'll get some EOG done up and submitted this weekend. Are there some issues you'd like us to touch on and address?

This game had plenty left. Why did you all quit?

I agree, I think this game did still have some life left in it. I'll try to get an EOG up by next week, anything particular that I should include?

To clarify to everyone - there wasn't a sub waiting in the wings for Turkey, nor was I under the impression that the professors (besides from our good ck) had any interest in continuing. We were on our 3rd England and 2nd or 3rd Germany, and I didn't exactly see it getting any better.

I wasn't criticizing your decision to draw it, without a sub for Turkey and few remaining profs the game wasn't going to go anywhere.
I just meant that in terms of the board the game still had life, and that it would have been nice if it were possible to continue playing out.

Oh! I wasn't expecting this. I thought I might be a participant in a draw, but not this soon :)

Since I sent only two messages in this game, it's probably my best points/press ratio so far.

I don't really have much to contribute to an EOG, since I was only in the game for one phase. But thanks for the almost-game, everyone!

Not really sure what an EOG is supposed to look like. Could I get linked to some examples?

Good game everyone!

threadID=940795

Thanks for playing, everyone! Sorry that England was a mess, I didn't really know what was going on after the replacement. Probably should have been a little more pro-active in my tutoring. Great job by A_Tin_Can to come in as a replacement!

If you want, I can write an EOG for England. There was a lot of criticism from the profs in the early years, which I'd gladly discuss. England's seemingly erratic play does make sense, I'd be happy to explain what the point was.

Good idea bas, I will not be writing an EOG for Turkey but if anyone has questions about any moves feel free to ask.

Andrew, when you signed up part of the deal was to write an EOG and you were encouraged to use your notes section as you went along. What was your plan from the beginning and how did it change as the game progressed?

Step 1 - get a feel for Austria and Russia, keep in talks with Italy and Germany. Austria and Russia were both promising different things so trust was put with the one that sounded like a friend and ally.
Step 2 - fool Austria.
Step 3 - fool Austria.
Step 4 - listen to all the stories of how first England was trying to run the show and then watch him and Germany leave.
Step 4 - watch Germany and England leave again.
Step 5 - go for the end game as fast as possible by giving up everything and either winning it all of losing it all to Russia. He knew about it and took advantage, fair enough.
Step 6 - prevent Italy, England, Austria from stopping Russia.
Step 7 - watch England leave again.
Step 8 - ???
Step 9 - profit.

This isn't an EOG per se, but I was the TA for Austria. He mentioned to me from the start that he wanted to use the game as an opportunity to try something different, and that he wanted to see if he could make the T/A work. While we talked about a lot of the downsides, he was motivated to use this as a learning experience (which to me is the correct mindset for a SoW) and he felt good about Turkey's cooperation. Clearly, Andrew Wiggin's Steps 2 and 3 were successful--partly because Austria was driven to make it work no matter what.

After the R/T's joint move against Austria, it was a game of trying to convince anyone/everyone to line up to stop them by helping prop up the Austrian. Clearly that didn't work. Austria's opening years are critical and the importance of diplomacy for Austria in particular cannot be overstated. Neither went the way they needed to for a successful Austrian campaign.

School of War EOG for Russia: This is based on my writing during the game, notes taken, and moves.

Prior to spring moves, I conducted some research into a decent Russia strategy. Professor Eden had a thread written somewhere other than Dip Archive which seemed to run counter some of the conventional wisdom. I was open to working with Turkey. That meant Austria was going to have to be the odd-person out in the grand scheme of things. I was also cognizant of wanting to avoid an England Germany taking on France.

Negotiations seemed reasonable and standard. Germany looked for the usual DMZs...Silesia, Prussia, and Golf of Bothnia. Turkey negotiated for the BLA bounce. Austria was interested in Galicia as a DMZ than a bounce. England and I had conversations around the north. As solid as I felt with the commitment to Turkey and not to Austria, I also was not ironclad. I wanted the diplomacy to do its thing.

My centre goals were: Moscow, Sev, St Pete, Warsaw, Sweden, Rumania, (Norway, Ankara, Smyrna, Constantinople, Serbia, Budapest, Vienna, Trieste, Greece, Munich, Berlin, Bulgaria).



1901:
Spring moves: Moved St Pete to Bothnia with an eye on Sweden. I assumed the fleet would be amenable to both England and Germany. I moved Warsaw to Ukraine as diplomacy to Germany. My two bungled, but planned moves, were Sev to BLA (bounce) and Moscow to Sev.

Autumn negotiations gave me these impressions: Austria talking like we were allied, Turkey talking like we were allied but also talking about moving against Austria. England’s communication was that Austria was planning on moving against me, and France suggested Germany was moving against me. I could not let the chatter about others moving against me distract me from the original intent.

Autumn moves: Took Sweden as England took Norway, Germany took Denmark. Those northern moves seemed pretty complementary to one another. Sev supported Ukraine into Rumania while Moscow moved to Ukraine to buffer the south. I had negotiated “no-fleet” builds in St Pete so held to that. In hindsight, I would have challenged England more on that. Turkey took BLA

From my notes section for the autumn 1901:
Who is possibly moving against me?
Turkey wants the BLA open for themselves, says they will take Rumania with Serbia support.
GofB>Sweden, Sev S Ukr>Rum, Mos>Ukr, Ukr>Rum.
I admonished people to check orders, then when I did so, realized I had made a mistake. Fixed it JUST in time.
Italy is terse and close to the vest.

Spring 1902: England continued to push west against France, but for some reason we agreed to bounce Norway and Sweden (keeping both units honest?) I pushed into Galicia to begin getting an edge on Austria while Turkey moved westward as did Germany. At this point I am feeling a great attachment to Turkey...could this be an opportunity to work strongly together, Juggernaut or Naut?

Autumn 1902: From my notes; Convince England to move to the North Sea; I move Sweden to Norway, so gain it, or lose Sweden to Germany.

My moves turn out to be Mos>Warsaw, War>Galicia, Galicia>Bohemia. I don’t recall the exact reasons for making those moves, but it certainly threatened Germany who had moved to Silesia, and play a guessing game with Austria to take either Vienna or Budapest.

Spring 1903: Silesia moved against Warsaw (sparking Germany-Russia war), Bohemia/Galicia made a move toward Vienna but was blocked by Budapest and Trieste. However, Turkey grabbed Serbia.

The threesome against France continues.

I was surprised (Kudos to England!) by the Norway move to St Pete.

From those spring 1903 notes:
Maybe I am not planning far enough in advance, and keeping my partners in mind.
England offering Paris to Germany, but he will take it instead.
From Germany, Spring 1903: OK. So, I am agreed with the Norway and Sweden being yours. I can support hold you in Sweden if you want to try to bounce Skag in the spring.

Regarding the south, here are my two options: (1) War hold to ensure that I follow through on my word. Not ideal, because of stagnation, but an understandable desire to trust but verify.

(2) boh s gal - vie, War - gal. Might bounce might not. Has the benefit of keeping a unit on my border to keep me honest. Allows you to develop to where you can take Bud in the fall.

Short version: you are safe with me going to mun, and I would ideally like to keep Sil a DMZ but cannot force the issue. I think you have lots of southern options (boh -vie, gal - bud, rum s gal - bud is another) to allow you to develop south. I cannot begin a serious fight against you with only one unit, and I need to concentrate on getting my units in better position. If what you say about Eng is true, my full attention will be taken in fighting him. If I am able to talk him into an agreement, I will head south and can work with you in doing so.

Right now two countries border me - you and Eng. England is an overt threat. So I would like to secure peace, and DMZs with you, to let me deal with that. Let me know if we have an agreement.
10:50 PM The support hold in sweden was obviously for the fall.

For my northern units, I am debating between two moves. Hel S Den H, or Hel - den, den-kie. Let me know if you have any preference.

England stole St Pete from me. I need to get Denmark vacated; can Germany be compelled to head to the North Sea? I want Silesia to Berlin. Kiel to Munich. Ruhr to Burgundy.

Turkey needs to support Rum to Budapest. Galicia to Vienna with Boh support. Rum to Bud.

Autumn 1903. England completed their take of St Pete. I was able to secure Vienna but Turkey lost Serbia. England has most of France, but Austria made a great retreat to Tunis! Thing of beauty, really.

1903: Major things happening here include press from England suggesting a pact to work together to stab Germany. Turned out to be a stab on Germany but then ended in a stab on me for St Pete; rationale given, “I don’t want any Russian fleets in the north.”

England has no qualms stabbing and restabbing.

1903: Told that I could have Norway since St Pete was taken, North Sea was supported in to it instead. That’s the 3rd lie.

1904: Public commentary has focused on England’s stalled growth. Try to turn Germany against England (warn them of the stab). Get England to move against Germany. During this year, I expect to see, if the trend continues...Sweden lost, and Warsaw, Moscow, and Vienna threatened. Austria is wild card. I have pressed Turkey to keep them on board with me, against the threat from Germany. However, I am also looking at making a stab soon. I think it needs to work like this...convince them to get BLA in the fall with a grab of Constantinople in the spring. I am sure they will want to “retreat” me out. England has said they will support Sweden with Norway, but they have been disingenuous so far. I need to be pressing Germany next.

My notes for Spring 1904 could have been a direct quote from my TA: Right now, Russia’s biggest priority needs to be breaking up the alliance between England and Germany, and he has several tools for doing that. He can point out to England that, with fleets in Norway and St. Petersburg, it will take several years for England to get anything out of Russia, and by then, Germany will probably own Warsaw and Moscow. Meanwhile, he can point out to Germany that EG almost always eventually favors England, as England has the corner position. Finally, he can try to influence Italian moves to either help him take out Austria fast enough to reinforce his north, or to put pressure on England and Germany so that they cannot focus on invading Russia. Note that none of this diplomacy involves lying, as all three statements are true, to some extent. The key to this kind of diplomacy is getting other powers to view the map (and so develop strategy) in a way that benefits you, and this is much easier to do when you start with truths rather than trying to convince them of a complete wrong interpretation of the map.
Spring 1904 moves: Germany made a successful play for Sweden, retreating me to Bothnia. I finally managed to get the Sev fleet out of there to Rumania.

Autumn 1904 notes: To tell Germany in response to them answering about what England is telling them about Germany:

I want to have Germany lose a center this year, and for him to do so, we need to take back Sweden. Or, he can be foolish enough not to protect Denmark and lose that to me. I will even contact him notifying him that I plan to move there.

Can Norway support me into Sweden? Baltic support Sweden to Denmark. North Sea to Denmark or support to Belgium?

Turkey trying to gain: can't hit Rumania or Black Sea. I think they stand pat trying to gain Serbia.

Austria: They know Rumania can't take Budapest so they have to focus on Galicia and Vienna. Does Budapest support Albania to Trieste? Something to look at: not as clear cut as it seems.

Germany: Wants to hold Sweden, but looking at losing Denmark and Belgium.

Can Vienna move into Tyrolia while Venice takes Trieste?

Autumn 1904 moves:
I managed to grab Budapest without any impediment; we’re seeing the collapse of Austria. England has jammed against Germany enough to push Germany against them. It’s set me up to retake St Petersburg with a move to Livonia and build in Moscow.

And, that’s the end of the notes that I took.

Spring 1905; a lot of conversation between England and I about St Pete/Norway. They wanted to build army Edinburgh but that screams “army in Norway” while they wanted to dictate fleet take of St Pete, with a continued bounce of Sweden, etc. I also know they have an eye to try to take Denmark. It occurred to me, “Use the leverage you have!” Earlier on I had suggested holding the build, or if needing to, build Liverpool. I finally laid it out there and said, “Build army Edinburgh, that army takes St Pete.” Then England had the audacity to press: I kept up with my end of the bargain, I hope you do the same. In that case, I should send an itemized list of moves that were agreed on but not followed through on.

Turkey was nervous about the Sev army build, and made a case for Moscow. It seemed reasonable to me. They build Constantinople, which can go either way.

Meanwhile, I need to rationalize the eventual stab, or disappointment of Turkey. It feels like it needs to happen sooner than later. I also have Italy angling for Trieste. My worry is that if I take Trieste for myself, knowing that Italy REALLY needs that build, do I create a Turkey/Italy machine with the aim of taking out Russia?

My moves that turn involved: Moscow to St Pete, Bothnia to Sweden, and pushing against Trieste, which Italy held. Turkey made more moves against the western waters. Italy and England hold around the Western Med.


Fall 1905: England pressed hard for withdrawal of Sweden, fleet in St Pete, etc. Tried to tie up units with the bounce of Norway, didn’t take it, so had to take the push of units in Norway and Sweden. Also began stab of Turkey with fleet to Black Sea and army in Rumania. Managed to convince Turkey to support into Trieste and Italy to hold off. Gave Germany intel to at least stop the bleeding.

My moves were into Norway, Trieste (which Turkey helped me with), and Rumania to Black Sea. This was the stab. I told Turkey that I didn’t let them know about it ahead of time because I didn’t want them to get jittery. I sold it that I would go to Con in the spring, then exit into Aegean in the fall.


1905 Builds: 3 But do I want to hold off? I’d love to move St Pete out and build a fleet. But that means I need to look at my original goal of 18. I held off and built armies in Sev and Moscow.


Spring 1906: I moved to Armenia, supported Rumania into Bulgaria, and apologized to Turkey. They said they expected it. Now it was a matter of trying to sell Italy on supporting my moves...which was made easier since they were anti-England. England opened up into Holland, setting Germany against them again. I tried supporting Germany to Denmark as a show of support and faith.

At this point in time, this was a long time ago so the notes I have on this are sketchy. But, Turkey was suggesting that they wanted to see this through to the end with a win for Russia and a survive for them.

My big piece, and this was made difficult with the changing Germany and England players, was keeping them from aligning and preventing my solo, and also convincing Italy and Turkey to join them.

Autumn 1906: I wanted to consolidate Turkey and took Constantinople. I left Ankara open for Turkey to get their “survive.” I moved into Tyrolia to begin making a move on Venice. England was consolidating south of Scandinavia which threatened Norway or Sweden. I got my fleet build in St Pete, an army in Warsaw, and another fleet in Sev. I was concerned about the army build in Edinburgh.

Spring 1907: I got the St Pete fleet to Norway and moved that fleet to NWG (looking at getting into NAO/North Sea later on). England hits Sweden from Ska/Denmark, which had been supported by Finland.

And that’s that.

Big learnings: Develop a plan/direction for the 18 centres; talk and talk often, especially in the beginning. Peterwiggin’s commentary around opening press was very helpful. In goldfinger’s words, I throw on the superlatives pretty thick, but I think that can build relationships. Don’t lie in 1901 if it can be helped, you want to build trust. It’s one thing to start with an idea of alliances, but they’re not written in stone, nor should they be. I also think I learned the idea of the 3v1, 2v1 idea of the early game.

I would have liked to have gotten the solo. Who wouldn’t? I had gained a lot from having a loyal ally in Turkey. I escaped a close stall by having an England that chose to change directions. I think something I’ve heard before is to pick a foe and stick with it. In my mind, England had me, especially with Germany support. That was squandered.

Thanks to my TA, goldfinger, for being there to answer questions, ask questions that clarified my thinking, and pointing out observations I may have missed. I have kept all of their PMs because of the solid content and it’s something I can still draw on in new games. Thanks to the professors for their challenging insights. And thanks to the players that embarked on the learning experience. I don’t feel I am where I want to be, as a player, but I feel like I am getting there with the knowledge gained during this game.

Nice EoG for Russia.

Aye, it was. I enjoyed reading it.
My EOG will have to be less detailed, as I failed to use the "notes" tab. I'll do my best from memory, though

Good EOG Russia.

I think you learned a lot from this game, and had you continued on I think you would have been able to get to the solo. Tactics...well you and I both need to work on those haha, but you have gained a sound understanding of diplomacy and strategy and I think you'll do well in the future.

I look forward to the English EOG, since I did spend a day or two thinking about the position :)

Also, this seems like as good a place as any to post this: I've been thinking about collating the SoW posts from the various SoW games on a single page so that you can click through the phases and see the commentary from each turn. Is this something that people would be interested in? If so, I'll spend some time putting it together.

Also, I noticed my earlier comment about points per press ratio was incorrect - I actually lost points on this game, since the points for the position were more than the points from the draw. Fortunately, I'm not one for measuring my progress by points :)

There are many threads with links to all the other SoW threads, so it should be fairly easy to at least locate all the posts. Perhaps a page on the tourney site could be dedicated to it.

And remember guys - if you had any questions on what another country was thinking at any time, this is where you can ask :)

austria here, i try to keep my eog short and simple. i made two basic mistakes in this game and wrote down three possible solutions to avoid these mistakes in further games:

1) wanting an alliance with turkey too badly.

murraysheroes told me beforehand that i have to seek an alliance who sounds the most competent towards me. since i played austria two or three times before and always allied with russia, i wanted to try something new for this game. i think this is why i convinced myself that siding with turkey is a good idea, even if allying with russia would have been a better idea.
solution #1: do not make a plan too concrete before listening to what everybody on the board has to say.
and solution #2: do not agree on an alliance with turkey before 02.

2) not moving to vienna from budapest in autumn 03.
this mistake was pointed out by every professor, and there's a good reason for that, because this move was simply bad. yet there is also an easy solution:
do not give up. ever.
i didn't look at the situation on the board to closely because i thought that the game is over for me anyways, since the juggernaut was collapsing on me and italy didn't help at all. but it wasn't, and i missed that opportunity.

also, as austria: make sure that italy is helping you against turkey, because if he isn't, you're going to have a problem.

Thanks for your thoughts kasimax. I've got to go back through my notes, but I don't recall immediately what made me hang my hat on Turkey as opposed to you. I think part of it was based on the idea that Russia Austria eventually run into issues around where to expand next. Regarding the Italy factor, at the very least, you have to make sure that they are friendly, if not altogether helpful. Austria can be hard because it requires choosing a direction quickly, and sticking with it. Too many times, and I've run into this as Germany as well, I get pushed and pulled reacting to my neighbours. I don't cringe when I draw Austria...the diplomacy involved in playing it is a great challenge. By the way, your TA was my opponent in my first SoW. Good player and standup person as well.

Hamilton - iirc, it was due to the frequency and substance of press Turkey was sending your way that you felt more comfortable with him.