OK, so I got halfway down a rather lengthy front page before I even go to the title "Introduction" and it read like some damn legal document. Want to enlighten this dummy in a nutshell? I got the Civilian Engineer Corps folks that did their voluntary time and the government revoked their option to opt out (kind of like the US did with Iraq and Afghanistan and some reservists who were called up and made to stay *way* longer than their reserve time allowed for). And I saw something about soldiers who went on to serve in the UK service but were still called deserters. So what all is/was going on?

Oops, should have refreshed the page first.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16343906

There's a shorter version about this for you, Draugnar.

@ Draug I suggest that you listen to this radio program/read the transcript - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b018xtr9

But if you can't get it, or haven't the time, then maybe this might help from rte:

From RTE news:

The Government is under pressure to pardon soldiers who deserted the Defence Forces to join the British army during the Second World War.

It is thought some 5,000 troops swapped uniforms and around 100 of them are still alive.

A petition launched last summer calling on the Government to pardon the soldiers gathered over 2,000 signatures.

Many of those who left the Irish Defence Forces were killed during the War.

But those who survived are said to have been treated as second class citizens for the rest of their lives after they returned to Ireland.

The campaigners say that all the men who quit the Irish Army were dismissed in their absence and that after the war the Government compiled a list of those who deserted.

This was then circulated confidentially to all State agencies barring them from State jobs and other entitlements.

A radio documentary on the issue will be broadcast on BBC tomorrow.

Several members of the Dáil and Seanad are said to be supporting a pardon.

The question of a pardon is now being considered by the Attorney General. But Minister for Defence Alan Shatter has indicated that a decision on the matter is some time away.

and from the transcript:
O'Brien
Well some of the stories we've heard today I mean they just shock you to your very core and we think we're in tough times now but my gosh I feel stronger than I ever did that we must take action for these people. I would like to see their situation brought to justice and I would like to see a full pardon granted both to them and to their families to give them the comfort they deserve and the peace they deserve.

Interesting and a bit distressing... Our government pardoned real "deserters" in the form of consciencious objectors who headed north to Canada, but the Irish government decided some troops who *wanted* to make a difference should be criminalized? Geez! I hope not only for thos alive, but for the names and reputations of those who didn't survive the war or have since passed that the Irish government gets their fucking act together. And they say the US is a disgrace to the international community...

'Several members of the Dáil and Seanad' - The Dáil is the lower house of the Irish Government, the Seanad is the upper house, of Senate (though with enough appointments made by the government meaning they guarentee a majority)

RTE is Raidió Teilifís Éireann - Ireland's National Television and Radio Broadcaster.

This is not something which Irish history students are taught about, as far as i'm aware. Though in the first world war about 100,000 troops joined the british armed forces to fight 'for the small countries' (though they weren't deserters, as there was no Irish army at the time, except the terrorist-freedom figthers who helped gain independence from Britian over the next 8 years.)

The minister for Defence at the time, Oscar Traynor, and the head of the Government, Éamon de Valera, both fought in the 1916 Easter Rising, where they, along with 1,200 failed in a bloody rebellion. In part because of the 100,000 volunteers, who had gone to fight for the other side.

I'm sure this little bit of history was not forgotten by the Irish government of 1945 when they gave issued the starvation order against those actual deserters from the Irish Defence Forces, during what was a national Emergency (cause we never entered the war)

Draugnar, i hope the little background gives you a bit of insight into some of the thinking at the time. I'm sure this hasn't been a political issue, as i never really heard about it growing up.

I might also note the bitter civil war which was fought in ireland ~1921-23, again involving these individuals, was entirely over collaboration with Britian (ie agreeing to the Anglo-Irish treaty which setup the Irish Free State - a Dominion of the British Commonwealth, kind like Canada)

We all have situations were the government, country or people, disgrace the name of the country.

The Canadian soldiers pissing on dead civilians in Somalia disgraced the name of what was before then considered a solid country whose armed forces sole purpose was peace keeping. We have further disgraced this through the use of our armed forced in Afghanistan.

The American actions in Iraq are also questionable, but I would say this was less the armies fault and more the government in place.

The point that I am trying to make is no country has a solid reputation, and I would honestly say this one is blone out of proportion.

The reality is they disobeyed orders, deserted the army and fought for the enemy (Ireland rebelled against Great Britian on 20 years earlier and they were still fighting for Northern Ireland). In this instance it happened that the enemy was fighting against Hitler, someone who is now percieved to be one of, if not the most evil person in history.

However in the 30s nobody new about the holocaust, Hitler wasn't bragging that he was killing Jews, he was just killing them.

I'm not saying what they did was wrong, but that Ireland had reason to disown them. In my oppinion the fault here wasn't that they disowned them, but the lenght of time it took to pardon them.

However look at the facts, the government who disowned them was 60 years ago, Where the leaders of Ireland in the last 50 years aware of the situation, and if so the severity of it?

No country is perfect and everyone will make mistakes on the international stage if thety stay on it long enough, you can't fault a government for the actions committed by them 50 years ago.

One of the best quotes from the Dark Night: "you either die the hero, or live long enough to become the villian"

@ Fasces, I tend to agree with you, there is no such thing as ''bad'' and ''good'' nationalities, just people. Nevertheless there has been considerable denial in Ireland for the last 60 years on this and associated topics. Couple it with the role of much of the IRA in WW2 (extending perhaps to the bombing at Enniskillen, 1987) , the pre-war blueshirts in Spain, Dev's signing of that dammed condolence book etc. and perhaps the accepted narrative needs to be revisited?
It would be good if it might be done so in the light of these brave men and also those, like my friend, who was not a member of the Irish armed forces but volunteered anyway and was similarly shunned, and effectively exciled, when he returned home.

Isn't this all a very clear-cut case? Is there one country in the world, which does NOT label its soldiers deserter (who actually by rule of definition almost always "get shot" if/when caught, to which very few object...ever....) once they decide to doff their own country's uniform only to don another country's uniform? And whichever countries those two countries are, and whatever the issue that motivated the deserters is, is universally the same and doesn't make one iota of difference to the definition of a deserter - at least in my book - and until I saw this thread I thought in the book of every other rationally-thinking human being....:-)).
If you wore the uniform of the Irish Army, you were oath and duty bound to fight for the Irish Army and for no-one else (and for Irish x 2, you can fill in any name of any other country you like - the principle is the same)

@Fasces:

General Richard Mulcahy, (Parliamentary Debates) : "I submit to the Minister (Minister for Defence Oscar Traynor) that he is doing the Army damage by introducing a new disciplinary code for deserters in this way, by an emergency Order..."

Yes, this was the Government of Ireland running roughshod over the Army, which already had rules regarding deserters. This was a pretty extreme punishment - literally a starvation order, as most of the employers in Ireland at the time were state-owned companies, and thus the ban on working for the state basically forced them to starve.

It is the kind of thing which leads to a civil rights movement, when Irish Catholics were unable to get jobs in Northern Ireland 25 years later, they war lasted until 1998, and we still have bombs today.

No government has touched this since because they don't have the guts to do it.

'If you wore the uniform of the Irish Army, you were oath and duty bound to fight for the Irish Army and for no-one else'

The Irish army wasn't doing any fighting at the time, those individuals who signed up to defend Ireland against German aggression continued to do so by enlisting in the British armed forces and fighting German, Japanese, and Italian forces.

And given the ~800 years of mixed heritage between Irish and British individuals, the re-invented 'Irish Nation' of the 1880s and the continued dual-citizenship, along with the sworn allegiance of the Irish Free State government to the British Monarch - (only repealed in 1933, and fully removed in 1937)

Sure the politics at the time was to identify the British as enemies, but the majority of the people would have said we were neutral, but neutral against the Germans... (i think)

sorry, i think i misread understood my history, or it was badly taught, maybe we were neutral against the British.

Your Irish?

Neutral against Germany yes, but not against Britain. And besides, iirc Germany helped fund the IRA (that was either WW1 or WW2)

That was WW1, they sent guns on a boat under Norwegian flag to support the rising, but it was caught in off the south coast and the Germans scuttled it.

Sir Roger Casement, having earned his title for service to human rights, led the diplomatic effort in Germany and was dropped off from a U-boat, but they messed up their drop, and he was captured and had his reputation destroyed, died in prison apparently after attempting suicide, but more likely killed by British who also faked the diaries to disgrace him...

On the other hand, looking at the Spainish civil war, the Catholic Irish and Blue shirt fascists went to support Franco, while the Irish Socialists went to support the republicans.

On the IRA and World War 2 a good starting point is to look up the head of the organisation at the time Sean Russell. To cut a long story short he was buried at sea with full honours from a German U-Boat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Se%C3%A1n_Russell

Some contrast to those put on the starvation list when they retuned from fighting the Nazis,

Well the republicans (spanish) were more socialist then anything else. Say what you want about Franco's supporters (fascist Italy, Nazi Germany), but I think Franco did more good then bad for spain, he severly boosted their economy in what some call the spanish miracle, he refused to intervene in world war 2, despite all his pre-war allies doing so, and remained in power for almost 40 years with little unrest.

I'm also (as usual when arguing with you) confused as to where you stand on the issue. Some of your posts seem to defend Irelands actions some seem to critisize...

'I'm also (as usual when arguing with you) confused as to where you stand on the issue. Some of your posts seem to defend Irelands actions some seem to critisize... '

Yes. I don't think any issue is simply black&white, if it appears i'm trying to convey both, r at least some of the complexities involved, i am glad - I hope i am also doing it accurately.

I disagree with you about France, but that is an argument for another day, but to repeat and perhaps echo what orathaic appears to saying:

...........there is no such thing as ''bad'' and ''good'' nationalities, just people.

#France# read #Franco#

Too much Diplomacy! :-)