Maybe tomorrow. Gotta go, just thought I'd throw it out already.

Revenge feels better.

Imagine your ally pulls a stupid stab on you, crippling your chances for success. Which feels better: (a) saying that's okay, I forgive you, and carrying on; or (b) ensuring he's the next player eliminated?

Then I ambwriting it off as obvious troll is obvious.

But feel free to add your own context...
I came to the subject because of some of the comments on the Boston Marathon Explosion if that's what you mean.

Hmm... I do suppose it needs more of a context... Okay, some kid once broke my arm for no reason as far as I know, he was sorry. I forgave him. Felt good. Chapter finished. I think that could've gone bad if I took revenge. Also, he was going to get punished for it if I didn't step up so he technically owes me that too. I dunno, feels good to me.

And like I said more coming tomorrow, really gotta go right now.

Problem is these people womnt say theynaresorry

OK, that was the context. I don't view seeking justice as seeking revenge. Likewise revenge is not justice. The perpetrators of the bombing need to be brought to justice but I have no desire to see more than that.

Little note: he was sorry AFTER I forgave him, still gotta go, jeez, running late!

Revenge is personal. Somebody who blows up a kid in Boston needs to be brought to justice. Somebody who blows up my kid needs more than that.

I tend to agree with steephie. Even if something happened to my kid, I'd look to let the law do its part. Failing that, I'd create my own justice, but I still wouldn't call it revenge - just patching up a bit of a loophole in the law, that's all. I'd grant them a merciful death.

Is that revenge? I'm actually struggling to vocalize exactly what the distinction is.

@YJ Haaa haa haaa! the little bitch that spends more time chasing me around the forum and crating attack threads against me claims he doesn't go for revenge?

The Supreme Hypocrite rears his ugly fucking head. What a douche bag.

OK... To keep it simple, let's call doing anything you may call justice or revenge, other than preventing a bad guy who brought others in danger from doing so again and things like that, revenge.

So, would you do anything more than preventing someone from doing something bad again if it was personal? I personally don't think I would. Although I don't know for sure. I just don't see the point.

it depends what you mean by revenge. but if you really did know the responsible party then you should do something. you need to get back at that individual. not out of hatred but out of a moral obligation. it is the right thing to do, to remove the person from society, at least. if it werent for people having this natural instinct then sure it would be good for us in the moment to just not do anything, but it would hurt society as a whole by allowing this type of person to stay in your society.

but if you were just caring about optimizing your own safety or whatever then sure it would be much more safe for you as an individual to do nothing. and maybe as we live outside of small communities these community obligations will cease to exist in our instincts, but we still have it and i would argue for good reason.

then again judging by how stupid people are if they try to seek revenge themselves they will more likely target somebody who was actually framed by those in power as a scapegoat... and then think they did something good. when in fact just turning one wrong into two. but the justice system is just as likely to do that... so it is a complicated situation.

I disagree with YJ in the "if the courts fail me I take it into my own hands" approach because that is revenge, not justice. If the courts let the person go, then there was clearly some question to the accused guilt or a cop/DA fucked up, then you pursue them for justice for your loved one. Sure, it isn't the same, but if the person was let free because a cop planted evidence, make certain the cop goes to jail. If the DA tampered with the jury, make certain the DA goes to jail. But if the jury finds them not guilty, you *must* accept it and try to move on with your life through grief couseling, support groups, and helping others in similar situations.

What's DA?

i have very little faith in the criminal justice system. your assumption that a cop who planted evidence would go to jail or a prosecutor that i guess you mean bribed a jury will go to jail... is completely wrong. that does not happen. but maybe the courts are slightly better than a mob in our current system. but only slightly. the courts cannot be relied upon either to prove innocence or guilt.

District Attorney, also called prosecutor or prosecuting attorney.

We also, have another means of seeking justice through financial penalty that doesn't require the same burden of proof as criminal law: civil law. Just ask OJ Simpson. He is in prison now for another crime, but he pretty much lost everything as a result of the civil trial where all that is required is a "preponderance of evidence" to find the defendant liable for damages.

they are a lot better than the military or police, like obama's kill list. that is based on nothing at all, it's based on what people tell him and those people are the most corrupted individuals in the world. so if the choice is the executive branch or the judicial branch to decide guilt, i will obvioulsly choose the judicial branch. but it is really not reliable.

Thanks Draugnar.

But do you guys think that if someone did something illegal that hurted you you should ALWAYS go to court? Just saying, if you forgive someone in such a case you may have found yourself a very good ally or friend. For me it works perfect in a game of Diplomacy as well if the circumstances are right. I noticed in real life and on this site, that everything tends to turn around if you forgive someone. Enemies turn into friends, but sadly some friends turn into enemies as well. So I see some point in not doing it if you've got loads of friends you don't want to lose, but if you only care about friends who like you for who you are you're better off forgiving if that's what you want. Of course it's almost impossible for a plain, cold-blooded murder but you get the point...

If someone causes me financial loss, they either make good on it or go to court. "In the words of John Hammond - "I don't blame people for their mistakes, but I do expect them to pay for them". I can forgive, but I still expect compensation for my loss.

Hm, good point. And how about when it has much more emotional value, not much "real" value? Do you ask for a compensation of the "real" value, or give some number to the emotional value and tell them to pay up or go to court? Not sure what court does with emotional value though.

any 'emotional value' is the same thing that was claimed to be a conflict with evolution (when we were discussing altruism) - just a throwback to things that helped out the group but not necessarily being the most logical thing for an individual.

Court has a way of computing emotional damage and emotional value, but it would honestly depend on the amount of emotional damage done. Kill my wife through your negligence and, even though she doesn't work, you damn well better believe I will get money out of you. Speeding down the road, lose control, and kill my pet in my own yeard? Yep, you are going to pay. But do something stupid in my houyse and break a vase given to me by a departed family member and I'd probably let it go at a sincere apology.

It also depends ont he relationship with the person. A total stranger who does you wrong is undeserving of forgiving their debt, but a friend can be forgiven a lot of wrongs and debts.

Hi, thanks for that perspective Draug, it's quite rational. Probably the wiser and righter choice, too. But I just don't see letting my child's rapist get off on a technicality. I don't think that justice is the exclusive domain of the courts.

I'm slightly confused by this. In my experience forgiveness is either something that happens or doesn't. The amount of influence your conscious mind has over it is really quite limited.

I dont think that's true at all, Octavious, not with the BIG stuff.

If you are to forgive a major betrayal or somebody hurting a family member, I seriously doubt it will ever happen "by itself." It's something you have to decide to do. That's my take on it, anyways.

I think Draugnar is saying his unconscious doesn't give a damn and his conscious likes (fair) money.

Might be wrong though?

What I am saying is emotional attachments are worth more than money so forgiving friends and small infractions is easy, but seeking just compensation to one who intentionally did you wrong and will have no further affiliation with you is perfectly acceptable.

Haa ha ha – it’s hilarious to see a vengeance-seeking ass-munch like Yellowjacket talking about forgiveness. This hypocrite never ceases to amaze…he talks out of both sides of his mouth more than a whore sucking double cocks.

@ yj

How do you do that, exactly? I could easily wake up one morning and say "I'm going to forgive x for doing y", but it doesn't really change a damned thing. You could perhaps decide to change the way you intend to act (not smacking him in the mouth the next time he happens to find himself near you, for example) but again on a more profound emotional level nothing is different.

Most of the justice would be good enough ..... let alone revenge

maybe, Octavious. I haven't really dealt with anything like that myself before, but I like your example. I think its a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy. I mean if you consciously decide to no longer let something bother you, you are far more likely to actually feel differently about it, aren't you?

I mean say hypothetically there was an idiot on the forums who regularly said stupid shit and made a fool of himself. You could try to get him to man up and allow yourself to get all worked up about it - or you could just laugh it off like everybody else does and have a good chuckle at his expense. I mean if somebody is hell-bent on being a loser there isn't much you can do about it, right?

Same goes for forgiveness, I think. You just have to decide how you're going to act.

Or should I say, if you decide how you act, the mentality may actually follow. You think?

@ yj

Possibly. You can go to great lengths to put something or someone out of mind, and there time will reduce the sharpness of the event, memory will fade and the raw emotion will subside. From this new position it may be possible to "forgive". Although part of me objects to this on the basis of it making forgiveness a close cousin of forgetfulness, which seems wrong.

At its best I like to see forgiveness the way one would imagine Jesus seeing it. A combination of a love of your fellow man and a refusal (perhaps inability) to hate which leads to genuine forgiveness, with the injured party harbouring no ill will or anger even though the injury is fresh.

It is this form of forgiveness that I cannot imagine being simply turned on or off at will. Perhaps it can be learned, but to do so would take an exceptionally long time and may only be possible if part of your upbringing from an early age. It is beyond me.

@YJ -- Again...YJ the Bitch is too afraid to address me directly. Here's the deal, assmunch...it was YOU, yo stupid douche bag, that chased me from thread to thread attacking me, and THEN issued a very public challenge to debate me on an off-site forum. I refused...saying you were more than welcome to debate me LOCALLY...HERE...ON THESE FORUMS.

Turns out that you are just a lying bitch...you never wanted a debate. You never wanted dialogue with me....all you ever wanted was "revenge"...to try to hurt me, and I refused your offer.

Now, like a child, you refuse to respond to me directly.

IF, Yellowjacket, you miserable pussbag, you *TRULY* believed in forgiveness, then you would address me directly, and you would attempt to reconcile and put the past in the past.

The truth is, you are just a pathetic POSEUR. You say the bullshit you think you need to say to keep those that you worship responding to you...and yes, everything yo undo is about making people say nice things to you, because you are too insecure to handle criticism.

But foremost...keeping on topic with forgiveness, if you were any sort of man at all, you would open a dialogue with me - as you professed you wanted to do - and you would try to start fresh. You don't....you refuse to....thus proving, once again, that all of your bullshit on this thread about vengeance, forgiveness, etc is all crap. All ANYONE needs to do is see your behavior here and now, in recent times, and they will realize that you are simply a liar, a poseur, a fraud....something I always knew about you. And I take great delight in pointing it out.

BUT...I would stop pointing out your blatant hypocrisy if you publicly addressed me and admitted that you were fraudulent in your request for a debate - never wanted it, as you refuse to debate me here and now...and that you apologize for chasing me around the forums constantly attacking me...seeking vengeance...when you profess to not believe in vengeance.

Here is you chance to MAN UP, YJ, and walk your talk.

I'm not holding my breath. Neither is anyone else around here....for you are now widely acknowledged to be a fraud and a hypocrite.

@YJ -- Just like you, I have created a thread addressed to you. It is about Forgiveness...

Man up, bitch.