Also, you'd probably never know.

For example, as you probably know there are actually quite a lot of digital attacks in the Netherlands lately... That could be China for all we know.

Even if we do, they could say it's a corrupt agent doing that or something... Sure, they'd have to execute someone but there are probably people who would volunteer to be executed for that cause...

A bank? No. A military network? Yes.

Even if we do *know*,

Just to be clear.

Not sure why you want to waste your time talking about "what ifs" when the question is already "what happened". Chinese government-sponsored hacking of the US is old news.

Here, in the blink of an eye, are 3 random article about Chinese hacking. Try Google first before posting "hypotheticals".

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-28/chinese-hacking-is-made-in-the-u-s-a-.html

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/3987-china-hacking-countermeasures-us-restricts-use-of-chinese-technology/

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-10-27/chinese-military-suspected-in-hacker-attacks-on-u-s-satellites.html

@steephie: "Even if we do . . ." Used to respect your opinions. Volunteer???

"Sure, they'd have to execute someone but there are probably people who would volunteer to be executed for that cause"
This must rank as the *stupidest thing I have ever heard* anytime, anyplace, anywhere.
Proclamations of satire are denied.

"Proclamations of satire are denied."

Then what do you want me to say?

I probably should've said "volunteer" instead of volunteer though.

Also, I'm sick. Cut me some slack :P

The United States has used computer viruses to sabotage Iran's development of a nuclear bomb for several years now. They know that we did it as a team effort with Israel. As far as I know, we're not at war with Iran.

And krellin is right, China has openly supported terrorist hacks against our security systems for several years now. The Chinese cause security breeches in our less secure departments on an almost monthly basis.

And, if history teaches us anything, the Chinese are just fighting back.

What do you mean by "fighting back"? If we carpet bombed Beijing tomorrow, would that be "just fighting back"?

new question interjected!
what if a foreign intelligence agency directs an attack through chinese ip address and convinces those who need convincing in the administration (and coincidentally those who will believe anything) that it came from china?

Gunfighter: No, if China would carpet bomb Washington after America bombed Beijing, that would be fighting back.

My point is that America probably started hacking China, so by hacking back they are fighting back.

@steephie
Not even China is claiming the US is hacking them. Unless you count North Korea.

You can't assume that America is always the aggressor. In fact, we are rarely the aggressor.

@Gunfighter, why wouldn't attack on a bank be an act of war? What if the Chinese invaded New York with their army and took all the banks but no military targets, wouldn't that still be an act of war?

"You can't assume that America is always the aggressor. In fact, we are rarely the aggressor."

I never claimed antyhing about being the agressor.

But, since you bring it up, has someone ever attacked you without you provoking it, aside from Pearl Harbour, and some very early wars with Mexico or whatever I know nothing about?

You might in theory not always be the agressor, but you guys do have this forward defence thing going on. That's rather provoking.

My point is, however, that I think Americans started to try hacking the Chinese first, to "keep the peace" of course. Not saying that's a problem, but you can hardly blame them from trying to hack you too. So that's what I meant with fighting back. Hacking back in this case.

1775 - American Revolutionary War. Disputed. The British may have fired first, but in any case their ridiculous taxes were enough of a provocation.

1801 - First Barbary War. American ships held by state-sponsored Barbary pirates without American provocation.

1812 - War of 1812. Started by Britain. The British captured American sailors without provocation on our part.

1846 - Mexican-American War. American territory invaded by Mexico without American provocation.

1861 - American Civil War. Confederate States of America fired the first shots on Fort Sumter without provocation.

1898 - Spanish-American War. Spain threatened American interests in Cuba and may have had a role in the destruction of the USS Maine (ACR-1). No overt American provocation.

1917 - World War One (American entry). German naval forces continued to attack and sink neutral American merchant ships. No American provocation (America was supplying both sides equally)

1941 - World War Two (American entry). Japanese naval forces executed aerial attack on the US naval base at Pearl Harbor. No significant American military provocation.

1950 - Korean War. Disputed. North Korea threatens South Korea (and the rest of the region) with a hostile communist conquest. America intervenes as part of a UN mission.No direct American provocation.

1964 - Vietnam War (Gulf of Tonkin incident). Disputed. North Vietnamese naval forces launch attack American destroyer USS Maddox (DD-731) American intervention therefore may have been justified. I'm not going to argue about this one, just throwing it out there.

1983, 1989, and 1994-1995 - American interventions in Grenada, Panama, and Haiti respectively. American interests threatened without American provocation.

1991 - Operation Desert Storm. American energy supply seriously threatened by Iraqi invasion of Kuwait and threatened invasion of Saudi Arabia. No American provocation.

2001 - Operation Enduring Freedom. American civil and military infrastructure attacked by al-Qaeda suicide attackers based in Afghanistan on September 11, 2001. No American provocation.

"My point is, however, that I think Americans started to try hacking the Chinese first, to "keep the peace" of course. Not saying that's a problem, but you can hardly blame them from trying to hack you too. So that's what I meant with fighting back. Hacking back in this case."

You're making the wild, baseless speculation that America hacked China first. In effect, you were assuming that America was the aggressor.

I don't really know a lot about American roles in wars before WWII and I already mentioned that one myself.

Korean War was America's decision, they didn't need to, they probably shouldn't have.

Vietnam War you're not going to argue about so I won't either.

American interventions in Grenada, Panama and Haiti are not really familiar to me but sounds like America invested in something far from home where they shouldn't have been in the first place.

Operation Desert Storm: energy is only a reason for war for Americans. They should've stayed out of it.

Don't know enough about Operation Enduring Freedom I think.

Also note that all these wars are on foreign ground.

My assumptions are based on above. America has a hard time staying out of anything. Why would they stay out of China? Again, to "keep the peace", but still.

Lol! Only Americans could look at a cival war and claim the other guys started it :p.

In all seriousness, Gunfighter, pretty much every nation on Earth could draw up similar lists of their conflicts and reasons why they had little choice but to fight because of the actions of the other side. It proves nothing except that nations don't like being seen as the aggressor.

Damn, I wish I had the same patriotism as Gun does. Kudos. I'd probably be a lot happier if I thought any of that were true.

@ steephie22

"Korean War was America's decision, they didn't need to, they probably shouldn't have."

That offends me personally and politically. Any fight to save a given people from the threat of communism is almost always justified. Looking at the present-day difference between North Korea and South Korea should be sufficient justification for almost anyone.

"American interventions in Grenada, Panama and Haiti are not really familiar to me but sounds like America invested in something far from home where they shouldn't have been in the first place."

America has had benign economic, geopolitical, and cultural interests in Latin America for over a century. Latin America is America's geopolitical backyard and we can police it if we damned well want to. Besides, it's not like any of those interventions did more harm than good.

"Operation Desert Storm: energy is only a reason for war for Americans. They should've stayed out of it."

Well, if certain groups of people weren't opposed to using domestic energy sources, we would have had a much more peaceful previous two decades and a lot more Arabs and Americans would still be breathing.

"Don't know enough about Operation Enduring Freedom I think."

Terrorist groups based in Afghanistan attack the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. America invades Afghanistan to eliminate these groups and their government sponsors. How much more justification does America need?

"Also note that all these wars are on foreign ground."

Yeah, except for all of the ones I listed that were fought in the United States.

@ Octavious

"It proves nothing except that nations don't like being seen as the aggressor."

It proves that insinuating that America is a brutal aggressor and bully is as dubious as the claim that America is a shining light of peace and justice. steephie22 and I both speak the truth. The difference is perspective.

@ bo_sox48

What did I say that was untrue? All of that shit really happened. Oh I forgot, public education doesn't teach that anymore.

@ Octavious
I don't know, I can think of a couple countries that might struggle to justify a couple wars. *cough* Soviet Union *cough* Invasion of Afghanistan *cough*

Yeah that one was... a little bit of a stretch.

@GF "1846 - Mexican-American War. American territory invaded by Mexico without American provocation."

Actually, Texas was part of Mexico, seceded, won its independence, submitted itself for annexation by the USA, who then proceeded to press a border dispute with Mexico (we said Texas passed all the way to the Rio Grande, Mexico said it was the Nueces river).

After we won a bunch of battles with Mexico, we then Annexed the disputed territory, in addition to forcing them to cede California, Utah, Nevada, Arizona, and parts of Colorado. Mexico lost 40% of it's landmass in that peace treaty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Cession

So really, GF I don't think it's fair to claim that we are just being the good guys here. I could make a similar argument to many of the other examples you've given. Most of them are WAY more nuanced than you are making them out to be - but this war in particular was definitely a war of aggression by the Union.

@ YJ

My point is that saying that America is always the aggressor is equally as ridiculous as saying that America has never done anything wrong.

Personally, I think that the terms of the initial treaty between Texas and Mexico set the border at the Rio Grande, but that's a debate for another day.

Gunfighter, on communists: first of all, I don't see how I offended you personally.

Second, justifying a war because the other side is communist sounds like bullshit to me. It's like crusades, jihads and the Holocaust: you believe something. Someone else believes something else. You kill him. You're wrong. Counts for both sides. They're not just some tyrants committing genocide. You're not either. Note that's just on communists. North Korea went a bit nuts, but that's only obvious to me with America acting like it does. My point is that America could've just let them take South Korea rather peacefully but instead they choose to kill some more people they don't like.

No, I do not agree with North Korea, but you guys didn't really increase Korean life, you just took lives.

That's pretty off-topic though. I only wanted to say that America probably hacked China before China hacked America, to keep the peace. They have more resources to spare and have spies all-over the globe and don't mind a bit of hacking so it would be weird if they didn't hack China. That's all. You had to assume I considered America the agressor, I didn't.

Saying that America probably hacked China first is a baseless assumption that has no place in a sound, reasoned debate.

Furthermore, I don't think America was "wrong" regarding Korean War involvement.

https://www.google.com/search?q=north+korea+south+korea+night&aq=f&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=T9ZuUZ_TJIHK2gWGgYHADA&biw=1440&bih=809&sei=UdZuUcv8CKv82gWHoIDoCA#imgrc=_

We saved a significant landmass and population from the horrors of communism. At a great cost, yes, but not at a cost that does not justify the outcome.

They say that the Korean War is "The Forgotten War" here in America, but there are several others that you left out of your big list. While I can probably safely assume you considered the almost constantly ongoing various American Indian Wars were something that goes without saying, here are some some of the main ones you missed. Included Wikipedia links because why not.

The Quasi-War: 1798-1800 Before the War of 1812, the French Republic also impressed US sailors, so we fought a brief naval war with them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quasi-War

The Banana Wars: multiple conflicts 1898–1934 in Caribbean/Central America, including intervention in the Mexican Revolution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_Wars

The Philippine-American War 1899-1902 (and The Moro Rebellion 1899-1913). They had been fighting an independence movement against Spain and then we gained the Philippines from beating Spain in the Spanish-American War, but when they realized we weren't going to let them be independent they fought us.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine%E2%80%93American_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moro_Rebellion

And this is probably the least known of this list:
Allied intervention in the Russian Civil War 1918-1920, Allied (as in WW1 Allies) forces including the US sent in forces to try to re-establish the Eastern Front, etc but it then turned into straight out fighting with the White Russians against the Bolsheviks/Red Army. US troops landed in Arkhangelsk and Vladivostok.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_intervention_in_the_Russian_Civil_War

Wikipedia has a full list, but it looks like most of the ones that haven't been mentioned so far either fall into broad categories (like American Indian Wars), or are minor events like engagements with pirates, or using the navy to evacuate American civilians from wars we weren't involved in, etc, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States

P.S. I am not getting involved in the justification argument. I just love history so felt it was necessary to mention ones that were missed. : P

No, short of launching missiles or anything that kills people no electronic act is going to start a war.

This is a hugly controversialy report right now. My major's focus is digital forensics, and the problem with cyber attackes is they can be staged, faked, and altered. It's nearly impossible to prove that a specific person did something at a specific time in a speciifc way over the internet. The introduction of routers located in foreign countries makes it even more difficult. There is no way any country would start a war off of a cyber attack because they would have way of knowing for sure if that country was being framed or not.
http://intelreport.mandiant.com/

The assumption is not baseless, I explained the base, you don't think it's valid. Matter of opinion. Also, there wasn't really a debate until I said that, so I don't think I screwed up a debate.

That link only shows you screwed over North Korea.

Communism isn't a horror. It's a political system. Just like a democracy. Which one is fucked up most is debatable. If anyone's making baseless assumptions that'd be you. You haven't even said what's wrong with communism.

Pure Marxist communism isn't necessarily a bad thing. Vietnam is an example in which even a modified version can succeed (they may be broke, but they started broke). However, the Korean war is justified beyond stopping the spread of Communism (though that explains why we were allied with the South Koreans). The North invaded the South without provocation. I'm not aware of a moral code that would claim protecting a people from such an attack is immoral.

Thanks for clarifying, GF.

We're an empire - there are good things that come with that, and bad things.

Without America there wouldn't be North and South, just Korea. America caused the split, or at least they could've prevented it. So that's why I think Korea is screwed by America.

Also, YJ, you're not an empire. An empire is ruled by an emperor and can conquer land. the United States can't. They can influence countries however, and they do that the bad way if you ask me. I'd call it a superpower. And yes, there are both good and bad things coming with that.