Forum
A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
Page 1077 of 1419
FirstPreviousNextLast
goldfinger0303 (3157 DMod)
01 Aug 13 UTC
The Masters Round 5
Emails are going out tonight, so check your inboxes in the morning. Let's have this round start in a timely manner :)

Also, those who volunteered to sub, just touch base with me. I have enough for this round, but I have this nagging feeling that I'm forgetting someone...
1 reply
Open
Tolstoy (1962 D)
31 Jul 13 UTC
Break Out the Tinfoil Hats
The age of the Orbital Mind Control Laser is nearly upon us!

http://www.activistpost.com/2013/07/secret-darpa-mind-control-project.html
5 replies
Open
Gen. Lee (7588 D(B))
31 Jul 13 UTC
Live full press Passworded game tonight?
Is anyone interested in playing a live full press game tonight? Maybe start 7-8pm?
11 replies
Open
nudge (284 D)
27 Jul 13 UTC
(+2)
Why R U Yanks so hung up on race?
Race seems to come into everything you do.Evidence: the Zimmerman threads here. Why is the colour of a man's skin seem to be the most important to you all, rather than his character?
12 replies
Open
Chaqa (3971 D(B))
31 Jul 13 UTC
EoG Live WTA-GB-143
10 replies
Open
krellin (80 DX)
29 Jul 13 UTC
(+2)
Democrats Hate Women?
There are a couple prominent Democrats in the news recently doing foul things towards women...and have been prominent Democrats in the past (4 examples to follow). The party line response? SILENCE. Funny, the White House openly speaks about all sorts of race issues...but on Sexual abuse by Democrats...silence. Do DEMOCRATS HATE WOMEN?
68 replies
Open
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
27 Jul 13 UTC
Marijuana
It's illegal in the US.

Why.
136 replies
Open
Al Swearengen (0 DX)
30 Jul 13 UTC
Podcast recommendation needed
Sirs,

I might be going on a bit of a road trip in the near future, and will require something to listen to. Any recommendations for some good podcasts?
12 replies
Open
Cachimbo (1181 D)
08 Jul 13 UTC
One last game?
In a fit of 'big headedness', I'm asking the community I've been playing Diplomacy with for some time now whether or not I should commit to an ultimate game before I leave this site. More info inside.
72 replies
Open
krellin (80 DX)
28 Jul 13 UTC
(+1)
Grofying, Gleeifying FAILURE
For dog's sake...He died of a drug overdose! Can we stop glorfying Hollywood fuck-ups! Stop glorifying athlete fuck-ups, etc. Oh, yay, he had such a pretty smile, bla blah. He took a dream life and threw it away. STOP GLORIFYING FUCKUPS!

http://www.tvguide.com/News/Glee-Mike-OMalley-Cory-Monteith-1068339.aspx Just another of the endless sob-stories that hides the pathetic truth.
Page 3 of 3
FirstPreviousNextLast
 
Draugnar (0 DX)
30 Jul 13 UTC
Obi - Every example - every one - you provided is from the OT. Show me in the NT where God or Jesus doesn't show love and I will show you how you are misinterpretting that particular scripture.

And to start off, I will demostrate how Christ's over turnign the changers tables *waS* an act of love and was immediately followed by him sitting down and teaching those who would listen.

When you were younger and you did wrong, your parents would punish you. Now I know in today's society, beating a kid's ass is considered wrong, but it isn't and it never was. It's only the bleading heart liberals who think a swat on the ass or two is "child abuse". But the fact is, Christ punished the money changers and merchants sinning in God's temple by overturning their tables and upsetting their wares to teach them a lesson of what the temple is supposed to be for. He then sat down and taught further on this theme showing patience and love. so, just like a good parent spanks their child to prevent them from repeating a wrong, so Christ made a spectacle to enlighten the merchancts and the moneychangers.
ckroberts (3548 D)
30 Jul 13 UTC
Leviticus is most definitely an instruction (or at least, it's the idealized version of an instruction book for editors writing after the fact). But the Bible as a whole is not an instruction book. What would you make out of the wisdom and poetry? I guess Song of Solomon is an instruction book in a The Joy of Sex kind of way, but that's not usually what people mean.

I don't want to do a point-by-point discussion of list (unless you really want to), except to say that much of the Old Testament you mention is probably not exactly historically accurate, and there isn't any anti-semitism in the books of Matthew and John; although, I agree that many people have wrongly used much of the New Testament to support their own antisemitic beliefs.

Don't me wrong, there's lots of moral instruction in the Bible, and we would be doing very well if most people could just halfway follow the recommendations for proper behavior in the New Testament. But that's not the main purpose. We might profitably make a comparison to eastern philosophies like Taosim: "The tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao." I don't think I'd go so far as to say that one's relationship with God or God's relationship with the world is entirely beyond the power of description, but it's certainly beyond easy description.
Celticfox (100 D(B))
30 Jul 13 UTC
Does the OT even matter anymore?
ckroberts (3548 D)
31 Jul 13 UTC
The Old Testament still matters. If nothing else it is full of beautiful poetry, challenging philosophy, and interesting history. But it also provides a context for much of the works of Christ.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
31 Jul 13 UTC
"Obi - Every example - every one - you provided is from the OT. Show me in the NT where God or Jesus doesn't show love and I will show you how you are misinterpretting that particular scripture."

That doesn't work for me, I'm afraid...

It's a Bible with TWO Testaments--criticizing the OT is a perfectly-fair way to criticize Christianity...they chose to keep it in their "canon," after all.

You can argue that Jesus changes this or overrides that...but regardless--

You can't write God ordering Saul to slaughter the Amalekites.
You just can't.
You (that is, Christians or "deist Christians") chose to keep that in the canon.
You could have excised that or completely disavowed that incident...
You don't...or they didn't, but either way--

Jesus doesn't disavow that action.
Jesus doesn't disavow slavery.
Jesus doesn't disavow the "cut off a woman's hand" bit from Deuteronomy.
Jesus doesn't this-that-and-the-other...

The most common counter-criticism I've heard against this form of criticism of Christianity is as follows, and it's one I believe you've used before yourself, Draug, in essence, it's a two word claim--

"You're cherry-picking."

That the anti-theist is cherry-picking incidents from here and there and all over the OT (I'l get to the NT in a moment) and that's not fair.

Well...you're doing a bit of the same, Draug, when you/the theist waves a hand at these atrocities but holds up the nice poetry of, say, the Psalms or the meditative thought in Ecclesiastes and even Job.

(And as a quick aside, Job might very well be my favorite book in the Bible...it's first of all so structurally different from the rest and almost set up like a Socratic Dialogue that it's actually kind of refreshing...I of course don't agree with the conclusion, but at least 1. the book seems to at least be TRYING to recognize and discuss a very legitimate problem with belief, that is, the Problem of Evil, and 2. This is of course not the way it was intended to be read--though it'd be hilarious if it actually was and a proto-atheist was playing a colossal joke on the theists--but Job CAN function as a text making the case for anti-theism...in the same way Dostoyevsky in his works clearly backs Orthodox Christianity but at least recognizes atheists have valid arguments to make and represents those arguments fairly, the Book of Job, even if it tries to in the end dissuade readers from siding with those against God, DOES present the anti-theist's case against God, albeit inadvertently. There's a lot more grey and a lot less black-and-white in that book...again, it's a lot more like a discussion, and DOESN'T portray God in the same light as elsewhere in the OT...nowhere else does God just stroll up to Satan and say "Hey, there's my good buddy Job...wanna make a bet, Lucifer?" That's sort of action seems far more like something a GREEK god or goddess would do, ie, make a bet with another god or goddess as to the actions of mortals...that combined with the pseudo-Socratic nature of the dialogue really makes me wonder if there wasn't a Hellenizing-influence in its writing, it really does stand out...there was a list made that was supposed to compile the Great Works of Western Civilization from Gilgamesh through to the later part of the 20th century, and The Book of Job made the cut--I agree. Great early work, again, possibly the finest work of the OT...and it's no coincidence that it's also so very DIFFERENT from other OT works, even by the admission of Biblical scholars.)

So...however "quick" that "quick aside" actually was...

You cherry-pick, Draug.
In part you cherry-pick NT passages over OT ones...
And I understand there's an argument that in some cases NT is supposed to "trump" OT ones (and I use that term loosely, so don't smite me here...)
But again:

Where's Jesus on slavery?
Where's Jesus on the cruelty towards women that's explicit throughout the OT, especially in that passage of Deuteronomy I mentioned?
Where's Jesus on genocide and infanticide, as condoned again and again in the OT?

The closest we can argue is that Jesus takes issue with the "Old Law" in some form...and really the interpretations and implications as to how, why, and what affect that is supposed to have is VERY hotly disputed, Draug, and in no cases does it eliminate the injustices I described above...

Which aren't minor offenses, I might add. I'm not slapping God on the wrist (as it were) for a small technicality here...

He condones slavery!
He condones selling your daughter!
He condones chopping a woman's hand off if it mashes a man's privates!
He condones Elisha sicking two bears to maul some kids who were calling him names!
He condones killing every non-Noah-family-member on Earth via flood (including babies?!)
He condones Solomon having enough wives and mistresses to make Joseph Smith blush!
He condones Saul killing every man, woman, elderly person, child and ANIMAL in the Amalekite tribe (and not only condone but COMMANDS it, and then gets mad that the genocide of an entire people wasn't thorough enough!)

That's not even a tenth of what we could drag up...
And these aren't minor problems...
And they're not problems Jesus corrects or speaks out against...
So how can you discount these examples as "only" being OT issues?
They're still valid...still "on the books," if you will...
Jesus doesn't make them go away, doesn't change them, doesn't apologize or speak out against them...

So why doesn't it count to you?

"Show me in the NT where God or Jesus doesn't show love and I will show you how you are misinterpretting that particular scripture."

I think you probably know what I'm going to say, but I'll say it anyway--

How about Hell?

Whether they speak of directly or not, that's still their punishment for not following God/Jesus...and I can already sense an argument on why they offer love and compassion (and I'll say maybe I can see an argument for that with Jesus, I think I've already said why I don't buy God as a compassionate character AT ALL, compassion and genocide just don't go together, I'm sorry) and so if you reject that, why, it's your OWN fault for landing in Eternal Damnation...

I don't buy it--why set up Eternal Damnation at all?
Actually...why set up EITHER part of that--
Surely if it's a punishment, of my own choice or otherwise, no one, not even someone as wicked as Hitler or Stalin, could possibly take an ETERNITY to shape up...
And why would a loving God set up the kind of wicked damnation the NT invokes?

"But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 8:12

And a quick Wikipedia check for that oh-so-famous phrase says it appears seven times in the NT...

So...really? The OT wasn't brutal enough? God needed to add THAT?

To paraphrase Hitchens (you had to know I would, sooner or later)--

At least in the OT, once you die, God's done with you.
He doesn't punish the dead.
"It's not until Gentle Jesus, Meek and Mild" comes along that ETERNAL punishment follows.
How is that loving?
You've just ratcheted up the pain and suffering and torment!
"But Man's own Free Will--"
Free Will or no Free Will, you really think THAT level of punishment is justified?
And for ETERNITY?

Billions of years old is the universe...that's just the tiniest fraction of ETERNITY...!

Really?

I'm sure you'll come back with an argument how that's completely loving, fair, or else Man's fault and not at all God being a callous prick...

But as you do, at least answer me this--WHY?

If Jesus and the NT is supposed to represent a "better" take on things, why would God save his worst, most incomprehensibly-awful punishment for when this Lamb of God hits the scene?

The OT is a brutal, NASTY place...but at least I can give the Hebrews one break--
The world they lived in WAS brutal and nasty.
That doesn't make their explaining genocide away OK, but still...
But they never took it to the level of "Kill the Amalekites AND torture them terribly for all eternity."

That's not love. It's just not. No loving God would create or allow such a place. Period.

"When you were younger and you did wrong, your parents would punish you. Now I know in today's society, beating a kid's ass is considered wrong, but it isn't and it never was."

...Rather beside the point, but while I agree a good spanking could straighten out some of these brats today (hey, I got spanked, same as everyone, even Roald Dahl, who was very much against caning, admitted a spanking here and there is probably good for a kid) let's not kid ourselves--it's not ALWAYS OK. There are those who took and still take it it way, way, WAY too far.

(Ironically enough one such person was a schoolmaster of Roald Dahl's...who beat boys until they bled and then some...who went on to become...Archbishop of Canterbury! What a nice, holy man, preaching love and peace while beating boys to the point of blood! ...Yeah, a cheap shot, but even you have to admit, the irony's palatable there.) ;)

"But the fact is, Christ punished the money changers and merchants sinning in God's temple by overturning their tables and upsetting their wares to teach them a lesson of what the temple is supposed to be for. He then sat down and taught further on this theme showing patience and love. so, just like a good parent spanks their child to prevent them from repeating a wrong, so Christ made a spectacle to enlighten the merchancts and the moneychangers."

I can see both sides of the argument in terms of fair or foul with Jesus overturning the tables of the moneychangers...

Nevertheless, even if we accept that as a good action--

How does that display of love possibly outweigh all the bad I've just mentioned?
ckroberts (3548 D)
31 Jul 13 UTC
Obi, would you invest in a copy of Strunk and White, with particular focus on Chapter II? Even krellin's mad mewlings are easier to follow sometimes.

Anyway, to the content of your argument, you're making the same mistake (though to the opposite conclusion) which people who use the Bible to support slavery or anti-gay laws or patriarchy do. You're missing the larger story in favor of looking at individual stories. It's missing the forest for the trees. (ignoring that there are lots of more explicit, for example, anti-slavery statements in even the Old Testament).

But to get to some of your specifics: most of the Old Testament stuff you are talking about is not historical. It is a literaryish creation. Maybe historical fiction would be a good word. In the old days, after all, they had a different understanding of history etc than we do today.

Also, I should note: Not all Christians believe in either eternal damnation or the existence of Hell as an eternal place of suffering. I don't, for example.


66 replies
dirge (768 D(B))
31 Jul 13 UTC
Gov Rick Scott supported by Satanists?
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/satanists-warm-fla-gov-rick-scott-article-1.1240057
16 replies
Open
LakersFan (899 D)
30 Jul 13 UTC
Woman mistakenly foreclosed on -- bank won't return her stuff
To discuss the above topic, please read the article below first:
15 replies
Open
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
30 Jul 13 UTC
(+1)
My Dovo Straight Razor Just Arrived
Going to try it out tonight. If you never hear from me again, you'll know why.
8 replies
Open
JesusPetry (258 D)
30 Jul 13 UTC
Yet Another Ancient Med Gunboat
gameID=123911
WTA, 17 D, 36h
1 reply
Open
tendmote (100 D(B))
30 Jul 13 UTC
Ghost Rank and Resignations
When Player 1 is getting beaten in a Diplomacy game, and resigns, and some other player takes over the position, does this count as a loss for Player 1 in Ghost Rank?
49 replies
Open
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
29 Jul 13 UTC
Trains
France, Spain, Florida, Quebec, now Switzerland... any other train crashes to report?
20 replies
Open
redhouse1938 (429 D)
28 Jul 13 UTC
THX 1138
Anybody see this rather unorthodox piece of work? :-)
12 replies
Open
sirKristof (15 DX)
29 Jul 13 UTC
funny moves
Some weird moves, hopefully nothing though!
9 replies
Open
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
27 Jul 13 UTC
Manslaughter
I didn't follow the Martin/Zimmerman case too closely (mostly because the media turned it into a politically-charged circus, as they do most everything they latch onto), and while the stand-your-ground law is plain stupid, he was not guilty of murder under the law. However, I don't understand why he wasn't guilty of manslaughter.
78 replies
Open
Draugnar (0 DX)
29 Jul 13 UTC
Sixty-nine, dude!
That's my available points as of posting this thread. :-)
7 replies
Open
Ubermensch (0 DX)
30 Jul 13 UTC
(+1)
Fleet Poland to Ukraine??
How is this possible?
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=122451#gamePanel
3 replies
Open
TBroadley (178 D)
22 Jul 13 UTC
(+2)
LUSTHOG SQUAD
Update contained inside. Please read.
6 replies
Open
Tardigrade (102 D)
29 Jul 13 UTC
American Game in Need of Players?
There's currently an American game titled "Battle for Texornia" that has six spaces left. The four people currently listed, and one more who will be listed if he decides to join, do know each other. Alliances and enemies however, will be made under circumstance and not pre-game relationships. Please take that into account if you sign up. The toll is 15 D and the password is turner.
gameID=123677
1 reply
Open
Tardigrade (102 D)
29 Jul 13 UTC
American Game in Need of Players!
There's currently an American game titled "The Great War for Texornia" that has six spaces left. The four people currently listed, and possibly another who will be named if he joins, do know each other. Alliances and enemies however, will be made under circumstance and not pre-game relationships. Please take that into account if you sign up. The toll is 15 D and the password is turner.
gameID=123095
0 replies
Open
zultar (4180 DMod(P))
05 Jul 13 UTC
(+1)
New gunboat tournament with a few twists
Details inside.
116 replies
Open
Invictus (240 D)
29 Jul 13 UTC
Remember the "psychic" who claimed to have found that boy's body?
http://doubtfulnews.com/2013/07/psychic-helped-find-a-body-not-so-fast-or-impressive/

But maybe we're just not believing hard enough.
0 replies
Open
redhouse1938 (429 D)
29 Jul 13 UTC
Major changes in science and engineering
So, last century we went to the moon, built nuclear plants and weapons and discovered the structure of DNA and many proteins. What are we doing this century? Thoughts?
10 replies
Open
Gnome de Guerre (359 D)
28 Jul 13 UTC
Miracle @ Dunkirk & Houserules
Does this idea that I just have already get implemented as a house rule, and would you use it?

"....An army may also retreat via convoy to any empty, unbounced land or coastal territory connected by undislodged fleets successfully holding intervening sea territory(s)...."
11 replies
Open
nudge (284 D)
27 Jul 13 UTC
Occupy Albania
Despite having drawn, i declare myself the victor...
11 replies
Open
The Czech (39715 D(S))
28 Jul 13 UTC
(+1)
If I post a cheating accusation will I get attention faster?
see story below
22 replies
Open
Page 1077 of 1419
FirstPreviousNextLast
Back to top