I use the 'drone strategy' killing enemies and allies alike with impunity, in war sometimes you don't stop the killing just to ask what side people are on.
A little tip I picked up from the 'War Masters'

That is a really difficult question. It is a valuation problem every time. There are risks and benefits associated with every option. I would suggest trying to predict what the other player is thinking, try and guess their moves and use this factor as a basis for answering your question.

I see your issue with England and Russia much more than I do with France. I think that there is really one "normal" French opening in gunboat. Things may change after S01, but, for the most part, I only do something different to shake things up. Russia is always a hot mess in gunboat. You start with the most units and are "attacked" in 01 by seemingly everyone.

I absolutely agree with what Lando said, but on the first turn, predicting intent is really a crap shoot. I generally try to do three things on the opening move:

1. Maximize opportunities for the Autumn.
2. Be in position to defend if necessary.
3. Conceal what I intend to do in '02.

I am curious what the "obvious" gunboat move is for France. I have experienced a variety of openings from a variety of French opponents ... everything from the MAR/GAS/MAO move to the BURwS/ENG move and several in between.

France has the highest number of "normal" openings (spring '01 moves) on the whole board imo. Followed by Italy. If by the "normal" you mean trying to secure the neutrals, guarding his own SC-s and not being agressive to anyone in your first movement. The fleet in Brest has one normal opening but two other units have several choices...

I think you can really only make a strong case for one, maybe two, combinations of opening moves for France in gunboat. There's really no need to be overly aggressive in 1901 when you are guaranteed two, possibly three builds no matter what happens with the other powers. F Bre-MAO, A Par-Bur, A Mar s A Par- Bur should be almost automatic. If you want to invade England, you're much better off securing your neutrals first and using the builds to go after him. If England takes the Channel, you can still grab Por with MAO since very few Englands will go directly for Bre from ENG. Even if he does, you still take it back easily in S1902.

@2wl ... so, no love for the BRE->MAO, MAR->SPA, PAR->GAS opening? That protects against any one aggressive opponent, though it is vulnerable to multiple.

Well,I'm not sure Germany would see A(Mar) s A(Par) - Bur as not overly aggressive. You challenge Germany to build two armies in the case depending on what Burgundy does in autumn. And by that move and holding Burgundy in autumn you are also not sure about having Brest,even in 1902. Or you may find yourself with two many unnecessary armies in '03.

Mar - Spa and Par - Gas is other extreme Bob. Somewhere in the middle you can find a bounce over Burgundy or Par - Bur and Mar - Spa.

Mar-Spa, Par-Gas, Bre-MAO is probably the worst set of opening French moves you could possibly use. It accomplishes nothing that the standard opening does not.

And yes, Germany could take Par-Bur with support the wrong way, but IMO, it's such a standard French gunboat opening that a halfway decent Germany shouldn't be offended by it, especially because it by no means guarantees France Bel OR Mun. If Germany covers Mun, worst case scenario is a bounce, and if he's really put off by the move, he can take Belgium fairly easily should that be where Bur goes.

It may be a standard move but it's still overly aggressive to Germany. It shows nothing but a desire to fight him in the future. If you want to invade England after '01 builds you certainly have no need to enter Burgundy and threaten Munich and Belgium. That leads to question - who has the most right on Belgium?

I agree with Mar-Spa,Par-Gas. It just doesn't work in gunboat. You invite the friendliest Germany even to attack you by that opening. The opening makes no sense.

I'd counter that, Split, by asking if you think Par-Bur is more of a defensive move by France or, in fact, purely aggressive. Personally, I'd rather risk offending Germany and trying to make it up with my moves and supports, which usually isn't too difficult, than have Germany sitting in Burgundy, which would set you back much further than if you'd made Germany mad to begin with.

That's why I said a bounce over Burgundy in spring was an option. A self-bounce Par - Bur, Mar - Bur. I agree you'd rather risk offending Germany if your plan is to attack him but you were talking about the opening in which you plan to invade England. So invade England and offend Germany at the same time I don't believe is a good choice.

I've only (rarely) seen Mar-Spa, Par-Gas useful in the context of a WT where France is aiming to fight Italy. I can't imagine opening like that in gunboat.

It works the same way in gb. England always has to worry about France, that opening could help build that relationship. No huge risk either as if England does go ec you canreneg on the south coast move

France can either go anti-England or anti-Germany. There is no turning back.

Which opening builds F/E relationship Lando? Mar s Par - Bur?

As I gain in my understanding of the game, and the nuances required for gunboat, would most players read that self-bounce as a declaration of "good-will," or at least "no ill will?"

Split - the French opening to Spain south coast

Oh that,sorry. Yes,it does. Combined with...?

I was actually suggesting MAO-Wes in the fall, combined with Gas-Spa and Spa-Por as part of a WT that follows through on Bre-MAO, Par-Gas, and Mar-Spa. I don't see why both armies would ever go south if France is taking Spain with the fleet.

You are right about it Stackelberg - not good in gunboat. The same as Lando's idea. If he suggests an army to Portugal in autumn '01 ?

Yes split that would be the follow up. I don't think its a great play but its not bad.

For me as France I try and be patient and safe to start. Let somebody else start the fight

Yes but it makes no sense to me. It's better to have the fleet in Por and the army in Spa. It makes no difference to England. Like this you invite Italy to turn on you imo.

Worst opening i seen that ended in à 18 Sc win
Par gas
Bre gas
Mar gas

I like the ^slingshot^ fleet with à fleet in Mao at start of 02.
Way back in the postal days when to save time you sent your builds with fall moves bre-Mao-iri was popular

Regarding bur i dislike it highly as france, you want g to build at lest one fleet

Hmmm interesting how this thread has gone to a discussion of French opening moves. I will say that I agree with what Lando said about being patient as France, as that's what I've read elsewhere and what appears to work the best. Always be equipped to deal with an aggressive E or G, but don't start a war until it's necessary.
As Germany (definitely my favorite country to play, press or no press), I typically run Kie-Den, Ber-Kie, and Mun-Ruh in gunboat, and I honestly don't care what France does with Bur. I still have influence over the lowlands plus Bur plus Mun, from Ruh, so I don't mind the French army in Bur.
How about England? Do you guys prefer Southern or Northern/Churchill opening? How about going south and sacrificing Nor in the autumn in order to convoy to Bel? What to do when there's a bounce in Eng? (I do have my answers to each of these, but I'd like to see what others have to say)

I didn't know an army in Ruhr is so powerfull. You may have influence over every region you mentioned but you can end up with a bounce over Holland (or Belgium) and lose Munich. And your game is over in the case. So I wouldn't be such careless about Burgundy.

I was more just saying that I think moving to Ruhr is much better than holding Munich. I obviously would cover Mun if French moves made it necessary, but I don't take a move to Bur as guaranteed aggression.