ghug...it hasn't, and it won't (damage the economy, that is) We'll be just fine...come down from the ledge. It'll be OK. (paranoid, sky-is-falling fuck...)

And, regarding the growth of spending...I'll agree that it grows...it should be capped at the rate of growth of the population it serves, adjusted for inflation. and that should be the maximum, worst case growth.

So you don't see any areas where you think that the government wouldn't be better off spending more? You don't think that our education system is a fucking joke?

I'll agree that massive spending growth isn't a great idea right now, but just because the economy isn't doing well doesn't mean that we should ignore all of the other problems facing our nation while stubbornly clinging to things that actually should be cut.

ghug, Uh....hmmmmm.....NO! How about we cut their budgets and see if it works out OK (hint...it will....people will adapt and survive...we are a miraculous nation of creative people...)

And...Education?!? Haaaa ha ha ha ha! Oh good god...right out of the liberal play book! "Oh...think of the children..."

Fact...there are *no* studies that support the idea that increased spending equates to a better education. I can find you example of schools with more spending that have great education, and I can find you examples of school systems with *massive* spending that are an abysmal failure. Money does *not* equal better education.

AND...if you want more money in your *LOCAL* school system...try this: STOP sending your money FIRST to the fucking federal Government, who skims off the top to pay a bunch of worthless fucking bureaucrats who do nothing to educate your child, and then send *LESS* money back to you. Tell me how the Federal government increases the amount of money in your schools? If you want more money in your schools, first STOP sending it to the Feds, and then take a *local* vote and send extra money directly to your school district.

Or...how about this...go get your check book out and write a donation.

Education system...the war on drugs...the war on poverty...etc...all the programs the Liberals love to hold on to, keep telling us we need *more* money to solve the problems...but as the years go on...and they get more and more money...and the education system continues to deteriorate, and drugs are just as available as ever, and poverty is the highest it's been in decades....How's that government solution to all of life's ills working out for you?

When will it dawn on you people that the Federal Government can't solve all yoru problems?

<scratches head...>
'The Federal Government Plays Doctor", Act 1, Scene 1:
"Doctor...I ate some poison and it made me sick...so I ate a little more, and I got sick...what should I do?"
"Well, I'd advise taking some more poison."

Honestly, with how fucked the federal government is, I wouldn't mind trying things at the state level for a while. Sure, most states would be much worse off, but mine wouldn't, and, quite frankly, I'm not sure I care any more.

krellin, you know that I am a high school student. I know you know this because you try to use my age to undercut my arguments whenever I have you backed into a corner, a rather pathetic thing to do, by the way.

I attend an underfunded and overcrowded school in an urban area. As far as high-schools go, we're pretty good: good test scores, several kids to top schools every year, etc., but we feel the effects of the low budget every day. We have history and government textbooks from the Reagan area, our computers are falling apart, our library is miniscule, our teachers have to buy paper out of their own pockets, our classes are over-full, our teachers underpaid, our students can't take the classes they want or get guidance because we have only four people doing the combined scheduling, administrating, and counseling work for 1900 students, and our building is falling apart. You can't tell me that all of those problems couldn't be rectified with a relatively negligible increase in education spending nationwide.

If I had the power to change these things with a vote at a local level or the money to fix it all myself, you can be assured that I would do so, but I don't, so I do what I can to advocate for change, and all I get from that is idiots like you yelling at me about how the government needs to cut spending but also keep spending shitloads of money on a military that would still outclass those of any national security threats by great margins with a fraction of that budget.

Anyway, we're getting off topic. You're wrong, and I'm tired of arguing with you. Out of pity, I will explain why you are so terribly wrong if you make any more points about the actual topic of discussion here, or even the one to which we have diverged. In exchange, I'll ask that... YOU stop TALKING... like... THIS... because... ****IT*** is... really... ANNOYING!!1!!11onethousandonehundredandeleven!!11!!!

Interesting ghug. When (very roughly) was your school built, if you know?

A bigger question, why are the finances of the biggest capitalist economy in the world in such a parlous state. Isn't the USA just one big success story??
I was under the impression it was the best country in the world:-
1) Best education in the world
2) Bravest army
3) Best run companies
4) Smartest people
5) Best diplomats
Added to that their many interventions around the world make it a much better and safer place to live in.
It appears that the reality maybe somewhat different from the truth and that Communist China and India are producing a higher calibre of pupil from their education system.
After years of being so right about world economics and international relations what on Earth seems to be the problem here?

Please don't get upset if your American and don't get the point I'm making here, ignorance is an inadequate defense & respone.
If you do what you always did you'll get what you always got, do you ever get the feeling something very fundamental needs to change in the good old US of A?
Maybe a big re-think is needed, the 3rd World War will be fought not with weapons but through the international banking system, the losers will be the people left holding the debt they can't service.

respone s/be response

I've never understood the claim that the USA is the greatest nation on earth. It seems to me that about the only thing that the USA leads in is killing civilians.

@Nigee - Let me tell you about the Indian "programmers" I know both here on H1B visas and over in India. The couldn't actually solve a problem if the wanted to.

NIH grants are being affected. This affects me.

ghug - your sob story bout your local school system is not very enlightening. As I said, I can find you success stories of highly funded schools, and I can find you disaster stories in highly funded school systems. i.e. Money does not equal a good education. Clearly your education isn't sufficient enough for you to comprehend this *fact*.

If you are concerned about the funding in your school system, I would recommend you examine the budget of your school system and seek the waste. I would suggest you look around you and find the waste.

But...you totally contradict yourself. You bitch about old text books and broken computers (and, by the wa, I call bullshit on this. Sounds like a sob story to me). AND YET, you tell me your schools get good test scores and you send kids to top schools every year. THANK YOU - YOU MAKE MY ARGUMENT.

It isn't the fancy computers that kids use for play time instead of education in schools that make school good...it's teachers teaching. So you histroy books end in 1980. Big fuciing deal. Has pre-1980 history changed? are your teacher incapable of teaching history from 1980 to present without a new book?

Detroit school systems have gone through horrible times. When they brought in auditors, they found massive corruption within the school adminstration, from teachers, etc. It wasn't a lack of money that was causing a lack of resources, it was all the god damned *thieves* working *inside* the system, which includes some of your precious teachers.

So, before you buy the whiny teachers "we need more money" union bullshit hook line and sinker, why don't you man up and go get a copy of the school budget.

And then, man up again, and instead of being a whiny little bitch grabbing for people's wallets, why don't you actually examine what I have told you: Find me a definite correlation between money and successful education systems. If you can prove to me that more money is guaranteed to improve the school system, I'll buy your argument.

Problem is, I can find you education systems with very little money that do one hell of a job and refute what you say.

ghug - as for your claim that I use your age against you - this argument has *nothing* to do with how old you are. Until this moment, I did not - or did not recall - how old you were. I don't hold your age against you; I hold your lack of common sense against you. I hold your lack of intellectual integrity against you in that you 1. Ignored what I said about lack of correlation between money and education success, and 2. you disproved yourself. I hold your lack of experience, coupled with your unwillingness to do research on a topic against you, because instead your just spew useless anecdotes at me.

I could counter your schooling story with a small, private christian school education that you can get here locally for under $3,000/year that will provide you an *outstanding* education at far less per pupil than any state run school. But that's a useless, 1-shot anecdote...which is why I refer to studies on a much larger basis.

So...whatever your age...if you want respect for your argument, don't be just another mindless union mouthpiece and go do some research on your own and come up with your own ideas. Then you'll be able to play with the big boys and not have to defend your age.

@krellin - "Problem is, I can find you education systems with very little money that do one hell of a job and refute what you say." It is correct to say that better funding does not always equate to a better school system. However, overall to say that money has nothing to do with education is naive. Here are two different web sites that show the disparity.

http://www.sacbee.com/2012/06/21/4579408/california-falls-to-35th-in-nation.html
http://247wallst.com/2013/01/16/states-with-the-best-and-worst-schools/

The first is a map (only the 48 contiguous states) and how much they pay per student for k-12 education. The second is a comparison of the best k-12 school systems and the worst. For the most part, bad school systems pay less per student. Good school systems pay more.

Your point of view is from an outsider that sees waste and abuse. Acutally, you don't see waste and abuse. You think you see waste and abuse. You believe that great teachers can teach with nothing but a chalkboard and a dream. And, basically, that is correct. The teacher is the most important element in education. Not computers. Not books. Not the facility. BUT, you cannot get and retain good teachers without money. Period. Try convincing someone with a science degree that they should get paid teacher wages as apposed to what their other classmates are going to be making. And do it with a straight face.

There are, of course, exceptions to the rule. There are great teachers out there that do it for the love of teaching. But love don't pay the bills.

http://www.sdhc.k12.fl.us/busdiv/Budget/pdfs/Budget1213.pdf

I teach in one of the 10 largest districts in the nation. Here is our proposed budget. You will see, on the page marked "Budget Summary" (about 8 pages in) that the total revunue is 1,707,331,899.87. No typo. That is how much we bring in.

After that, you will see the expenditures. You will notice that the first line, the one marked "Instruction" (teachers) is the largest by far at 898,268,506.70. And we are in the bottom half of starting teacher pay in the nation. http://www.teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state/

It costs a lot to run a school district. And it costs a lot to pay good teachers.

"Problem is, I can find you education systems with very little money that do one hell of a job and refute what you say."

I can also find doctors who don't get paid more than 50 or 60k a year and they do one hell of a job.

I can also find lawyers and elected officials and research scientists and construction workers and mechanics who don't get paid what they should but still do a hell of a job.

Let's all embrace communism where the best get undervalued. I'm amazed, Krellin of all people is advocating for communism! No, money doesn't always correlate with results, but in education in particular, if we want the best, we need to make teaching prestigious again. It has been watered down to a point where (in my area) people's back up plans are to teach. "Oh, I'm not smart enough to do what I want to do, so I'll probably go be a teacher." Coaches are teaching critical subjects. Nothing against coaches, but I'd rather have teachers coaching sports than coaches teaching any academic subject area. Check out Finland sometime, Krellin. They value teachers and education appropriately.

@ krellin:

"Make your massive government cut proposals here!"

Ok. I propose you cut government spending on healthcare by having a proper, socialised, free at the point of use healthcare system like we have in the UK.

The UK spends 9% of GDP on healthcare. The WHO ranks us 18th in the world for overall clinical outcomes. The USA, meanwhile, spends 18.2% of its GDP on healthcare, and ranks 37th in the world for overall clinical outcomes. Abandon the insurance-based model. It's not socially effective and it's certainly not cost-efficient.

I'm glad everyone is in such clear and strong agreement with me that no-one felt it necessary to comment further.

the inefficiencies in the government are so large that they could easily handle sequestration by cutting those out. but they wont. because the people in charge get enriched by those inefficiencies.

sequestration is nice for them because they can impose austerity and have something to blame it on. they were already making massive cutbacks, but now they can say its all sequestrations fault.

healthcare is a scam in america. but the uk healthcare system is pretty terrible as well. maybe slightly better, but no model of excellence. the problem is from drug companies / other medical corporations and monopolies created by the medical industry. where nurses cant do simple tasks and you need a doctor to do everything. and then they artificially restrict entry into the medical profession based on nonsense.

you want to see a decent medical system you have to go somewhere where the medical profession isnt controlled by a doctors association or the drug companies. but they control most of the world now. maybe not cuba or something. which is so incredibly impoverished that you would expect them to be dying at 30 or something but just by simply taking the power away from corporations and doctors associations they are quite healthy...

i say the best system is no system. that is, the government is not involved at all. sure all the people on here might take vaccines and the latest drugs and all that, and waste tons of money, but it is their decision. they may only hire doctors from established medical schools, that is fine. but then they would all spend a lot of money and probably not get as much as they were putting in. eventually, i have faith, the truth would win out, and under that system people would not take unproven drugs and vaccines. and the people who would be stupid enough to would suffer.

without government involvement people would be a lot healthier and safer. the government couldnt decide that you cant sue a drug company. the government couldnt convince people unproven medications are safe. the government couldnt force people to take vaccines. and the government couldnt prevent you from getting help from someone who you trust unless he went to school for 10 years and got a 4.2 gpa in his undergraduate humanities major or whatever it takes.

Sequestration. Isn't that a type of horse???