Israeli arabs do not hold the same rights in Israel, they are not represented anywhere near parity, and their kinsmen are murdered every other year for even attempting to fight back or simply exist in their homes in the West Bank. This is oppression, plain and simple.

"The UN ITSELF said it's not blaming either side until it can perform an independent investigation...are they not good enough for you, either?"

Of course the UN is going to try to be even handed in the situation, but the evidence reported is fairly clear.

"Uhh what? Resistance against oppressive regimes is a real thing in real life. Consider the ANC in South Africa, which was seen as a terrorist group at the time, but went on to be renowned for fighting against an apartheid state (a situation very closely mirroring Israel today)."

We've also likened it to the IRA and Britain...where both Britain AND the terrorist IRA were wrong.

See, you can make connections however you like...to fit your narrative.

"How you see Palestinians, who are routinely abandoned by their fellow Arab countries, as not oppressed by Israel is a huge mystery."

Palestinians disenfranchised?
Yes.
HAMAS oppressed?
NO.

You again conflate the people with one--ONE--political group...not even the biggest or most prominent Palestinian group.

"This isn't about black and white, this is about power crushing those without it."

...That would be a black and white view of the situation? O.o And a black and white statement, making a false, forced, and overly-simplified dichotomy? (You DO know there are more factions to this than Hamas vs. the current Israeli regime, yes? There are many more Palestinian parties and other Israeli parties? Or does that level of political complexity not work into your oversimplified dichotomy?)

"And your example doesn't make sense because the Latinos are not actively suppressing you in any way. If they committed violence against you for decades you would certainly be justified in committing violence back."

...Then why aren't the Israelis justified in firing back after they've been the subject of violence for decades since their very formation when the PALESTINIANS *REFUSED* a partition plan, took an all-or-nothing approach, lost, and have been firing at Israelis ever since?

If they'd just accepted the partition plan for peace, we might not have this problem in the first place...

And I ask you again--

What about the French and German and other European Jews now being attacked and brutalized by pro-Palestinian mobs and nationals of those European countries?

THEY are Jewish civilians being hurt in this conflict...but you don't seem to care...

"Of course the UN is going to try to be even handed in the situation, but the evidence reported is fairly clear."

O.o

Are you a forensics expert, Chairman?

If the *UN* doesn't think it's clear enough yet to say who, then who the hell are you to make such a statement and say it's "clear?"

Really, what kind of arrogant, self-promotional nonsense is that?

Are you suddenly smarter and more educated in these regards than the United Nations experts themselves?

"Palestinians disenfranchised?
Yes.
HAMAS oppressed?
NO."

Hamas are Palestinians you nitwit. They are not somehow outside the reality of every day human beings there.

"We've also likened it to the IRA and Britain...where both Britain AND the terrorist IRA were wrong.

See, you can make connections however you like...to fit your narrative."

I was providing examples of popular resistance that were in the right, something which you clearly think is only in the realm of science fiction. Just because there was another militant resistance somewhere's else that wasn't always in the right (though Ireland should have had its independence, in this the IRA were certainly right), doesn't refute my example or the efforts of Hamas.

"...Then why aren't the Israelis justified in firing back after they've been the subject of violence for decades since their very formation when the PALESTINIANS *REFUSED* a partition plan, took an all-or-nothing approach, lost, and have been firing at Israelis ever since?"

Somehow having your landed violently succeeded from you, without your permission, by zionist terroristism and foreign powers doesn't strike me as the one doing the oppressing here. "If they had just accepted that people would steal their lands we might not have this problem in the first place"

"Are you a forensics expert, Chairman?

If the *UN* doesn't think it's clear enough yet to say who, then who the hell are you to make such a statement and say it's "clear?"

Really, what kind of arrogant, self-promotional nonsense is that?

Are you suddenly smarter and more educated in these regards than the United Nations experts themselves?"

I'm going on the evidence the UN itself reported. Just because it wants to compile evidence and investigate fully doesn't mean it will reach always reach a different conclusion. There's facts on the ground and then there's facts for the record. The facts on the ground clearly point to Israel. And again, this wouldn't be the first time they've done this. The wayward Hamas rocket theory is a concoction by IDF from the start to cover their ass, nothing more.

"What about the French and German and other European Jews now being attacked and brutalized by pro-Palestinian mobs and nationals of those European countries?

THEY are Jewish civilians being hurt in this conflict...but you don't seem to care..."

As I've said, they're largely irrelevant to the Israeli - Gaza conflict itself. The increase violence we're seeing is backlash against Israel's own aggression. Israel is seen as in the wrong the world over, and people are responding to that. Just because anti-Semites are using this as cover to do what they've always done doesn't justify Israel's violence nor violence against Jews anywhere. What about the massive popular protests in support of Gaza the world over?

"Hamas are Palestinians you nitwit. They are not somehow outside the reality of every day human beings there."

They're a branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, which is based in/grew out of EGYPT.

So...yeah...they're not exactly an indigenous species, if you will...especially since they're supplied by Qatar and Iran.

Now, Mahmoud Abbas' political party IS home-grown.

Hamas? They're a blend of different Islamic states at best...

"I was providing examples of popular resistance that were in the right, something which you clearly think is only in the realm of science fiction."

Did I say that, or did I say "very very VERY rare?"

And it's not as simple as popular resistance vs. oppressor, ESPECIALLY since Hamas isn't all that popular there anymore, it had been declining in popularity before this war, AND had lost a key ally with Egypt outlawing the Muslim Brotherhood.

Which is another reason for Hamas starting this war--to re-assert itself politically in a Middle East that's quickly becoming overrun with big and powerful radicalized Islamic groups, from the Muslim Brotherhood's resurgence to Hezbollah's rearming to ISIS taking over half of Iraq and Syria and so on.

But no...Hamas would NEVER try and reassert itself through violence and war...

It's not like they were born of a faction that applauds violent means of opposition to non-Muslims and it's CERTAINLY not like any party waning in popularity has ever tried to start a war in order to fire a sense of nationalism and community within dissenting subjects...nah! Hamas would never start a war for political gain!

""Hamas are Palestinians you nitwit. They are not somehow outside the reality of every day human beings there."

They're a branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, which is based in/grew out of EGYPT."

Their origin doesn't divorce them from who makes up the organization and what they're fighting against

"Did I say that, or did I say "very very VERY rare?"

And it's not as simple as popular resistance vs. oppressor, ESPECIALLY since Hamas isn't all that popular there anymore, it had been declining in popularity before this war, AND had lost a key ally with Egypt outlawing the Muslim Brotherhood."

Who cares how rare it is, it applies in this situation.

And declining? Try again
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/hamas-gains-popularity-in-west-bank-for-stand-against-israel/article19764573/

Once again, Israel's violence is threatening to destabilize legitimate governing bodies (PA) and replacing it with something worse.

The rest of your post is some serious conjecture and fantasy. Hamas can't really hold a candle to any other Islamic party in the Mid-East, they're a one issue pony. The idea of them rising up as a credible force outside of Israel is laughable.

"And declining? Try again
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/hamas-gains-popularity-in-west-bank-for-stand-against-israel/article19764573/"

Yes...that's dated July 24th...AFTER Hamas began fighting this war.

So...that'd actually support my statement? That Hamas' approval rating, as it were, has gone UP as a result of the war, which might've been a reason for their starting it, to gain support?

"Once again, Israel's violence is threatening to destabilize legitimate governing bodies (PA) and replacing it with something worse."

The PA can survive just fine without Hamas...given how little control Abbas seems to have over them in that "coalition" government, I daresay they might even have a more united front, rather than Abbas' peaceful approach and Hamas' incitement to violence and war.

"Hamas can't really hold a candle to any other Islamic party in the Mid-East, they're a one issue pony. The idea of them rising up as a credible force outside of Israel is laughable."

That WASN'T the point of my statement at all--congrats!

The POINT was that, yes, they're a rather pigeon-holed party, hemmed in and with no prospects of spreading any time soon...so in order to stay alive and RELEVANT (as they were losing relevancy in the face of Abbas, who actually presents popular AND peaceful Palestinian alternative) they needed to do something noteworthy and drum up support...and in the tradition of their viewing citizens as "noble, jihad-loving people" they looked for a chance to beat their chests at Israel once more.

What more popular, sure-fire way of solidifying support than reinforcing the idea of the other as the enemy, lest Gazans blame HAMAS for the crippling poverty and terrible handling of everything from their infrastructure to their economy to their ability to negotiate or represent themselves?

"Who cares how rare it is, it applies in this situation."

No, it does not, because that situation involves a CLEAR, 100% RIGHT and CLEAR, 100% WRONG.

And if that's your view of this conflict, we can stop right now, as 1. Absolutely nobody actually involved with the peace process believes that, 2. Nobody but the radicals believe that, and 3. As I support Abbas' efforts and condemn Israel in the West Bank *I* don't believe that.

This is not simply good vs. evil. and frankly, you're childish if you view it to be so.

http://therightscoop.com/israeli-ambassador-reams-out-cnn-for-not-reporting-un-statement-that-says-hamas-makes-un-schools-a-target/

Hamas killing more Palestinian kids .... they must hate kids those Hamas. The Israelis won't be put off by Kerry, he is pathetic

There is hope now that both sides will agree to a 12-hour pause beginning in 7 hours, 8am Gaza time.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.606211

"Just a few weeks ago I was in one of those tunnels a mile or so from the Gaza border. The tunnels begin in Gaza and snake under the Gaza-Israel border to unknown locations within Israel. The tunnel I was in ended very close to an Israeli kindergarten in a kibbutz."

Want to keep telling me those tunnels are for "humanitarian" purposes...or that they pose no danger?

And I'd like to ask all of you this--

All of us are from the West...the US or Canada or the UK or European nations...there are some of us who live outside that sphere, but nearly all of us fit into the category of "the West"--

Hamas hates the West. They hate those governments. They hate us.

I have to admit...even if I didn't give a fig for Israel, I'd have a damn hard time rooting for a group of people who, given the chance, could very possibly kill me and those like me on sight.

That's directed at Hamas, NOT THE GREATER PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.

Abbas' regime wouldn't do that. Other Palestinian factions wouldn't do that.

But Hamas? Given they're as Antisemitic as they come, they'd kill me...and suppose they had the capability--do you feel confident that they wouldn't kill you?

It makes it pretty hard for me to sympathize with a group who, were the given the chance, I'm not so sure would grant me the same basic human sympathy...or, worse, could kill me.

It's easy to root for the underdog as an abstraction...but would you really feel safe were Hamas operatives in your backyard, knowing that they despise the West and especially despise the UK and US?

"which might've been a reason for their starting it, to gain support?"

Yes about that...

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teens-after-all.html

So Israel both knew the three teenagers were not dead, and that Hamas did not kidnap them. They've lied about not bombing the UN school and have lied about the very pretense for both Operation Brother's Keeper and Operating Protective Edge.

Netyanhu blamed Hamas immediately, without evidence, and most likely even knew this was a lie:
http://www.businessinsider.com/netanyahu-hamas-will-pay-for-the-killing-of-three-israeli-teens-2014-6

A reminder that up to this point, Hamas had fired no rockets since 2012, by Israel's own admission

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teens-after-all.html

Now Hamas and the Palestinian people are being punished for the work of lone agents and the lies of Israel.

Even through all this, with Israel clearly in the wrong at every turn, they are rejecting peace proposals that do not completely cater to them:

http://www.businessinsider.com/netanyahu-hamas-will-pay-for-the-killing-of-three-israeli-teens-2014-6
and are now EXPANDING the ground operation in Gaza

https://twitter.com/katz/status/492754448650108928

There's only one word for this: Barbaric.

"I have to admit...even if I didn't give a fig for Israel, I'd have a damn hard time rooting for a group of people who, given the chance, could very possibly kill me and those like me on sight"

I generally am not afraid of groups who have no ability to strike me. There are probably plenty of Africans that hate my/our way of life. There's probably plenty of Europeans. Doesn't mean they can or will follow through with their feelings.

""Just a few weeks ago I was in one of those tunnels a mile or so from the Gaza border. The tunnels begin in Gaza and snake under the Gaza-Israel border to unknown locations within Israel. The tunnel I was in ended very close to an Israeli kindergarten in a kibbutz."

Want to keep telling me those tunnels are for "humanitarian" purposes...or that they pose no danger?"

Even if we choose to believe this claim (I suspect it is more propaganda BS - how do you really know where the tunnel is if you've moved underground for great distances?), this would beg the question of why Israel builds kindergartens within tunneling distance of a war zone. Maybe we should be asking why Israel deliberately puts their people in harm's way, instead of Hamas; the former, after all, has substantially more room to move their population around out of danger than the latter.

"Even if we choose to believe this claim (I suspect it is more propaganda BS - how do you really know where the tunnel is if you've moved underground for great distances?), this would beg the question of why Israel builds kindergartens within tunneling distance of a war zone."

It's the exit of the tunnel he's talking about, he's saying the above-ground exit is near a kindergarten, I think that would be easy to determine, where the exit is? That's above ground, not underground?

And...perhaps because people live in Southern Israel, and in any case, the land--Israel, Gaza, and the West bank, all of it--is a thin, densely-populated strip of land.

You're telling me that people living in the South of Israel shouldn't build up the basic essentials of everyday modern life, schools and all?

"Maybe we should be asking why Israel deliberately puts their people in harm's way, instead of Hamas; the former, after all, has substantially more room to move their population around out of danger than the latter."

1. I refer you to my above comment...it's still a pretty small country, and

2. Unless you're suggesting absolutely no one live in the South of Israel...what would you like them to do?

3. No matter WHERE Israelis live, they're in danger. Rockets from Gaza have reached as far as Tel Aviv, so you're constantly in range of rocket fire. To the south, there's Hamas; in the West Bank, you have tensions there (though that's Israel's fault); and to the North you have Hezbollah still active in Lebanon (the 2006 war between Hezbollah and Israel forced a friend of mine to leave Lebanon.)

Israel's Iron Dome has thus far done a fantastic job of defending its people (despite Putin's decrying it as "swiss cheese"...somewhere between 2000 and 3000 at least rockets, and only 3 deaths, with an interception rate hovering around 90%? That's pretty damn good.)

Perhaps Hamas, if they're so concerned about Israel, should follow Israel's own example, and focus on defense rather than offense? Especially considering the fact that A. Their offense has been soundly swatted out of the sky and B. That incites ISRAEL to offense...which leads to unfortunate consequences...unless Hamas, as their quotes suggest, welcome those consequences, as a "noble, jihad-loving people?" (No one else has problems with Hams describing its own people that way?)

Just a few weeks ago I was in one of those Hamas meetings a mile or so from the Gaza border. The meetings begin in Gaza and continue under the Gaza-Israel border to unknown locations within Israel. The meeting I was in ended with us talking about an Israeli kindergarten in a kibbutz, but then we went and killed some kids in a UN run safe house in Palestine, then we thought we would blame it on the Israelis for being barbaric baby murderers and kid killers, it is all of their fault, if they were not occupying our land and refusing to leave for the last 47 years we would not have to defend ourselves, we have changed our name to the HDF, Hamas Defense Force so people think we are just 'defending ourselves', just in case our financiers get a little nervous when watching kids getting blow up on our beaches, they were probably planning to defend their land in 10-15 times anyway so were viewed as a serious threat to national security.
Those meetings, what were they about, 3 things mostly.
1) Why so many UN resolutions have been passed against Israel but never enforced
2) Why nobody is coming to help our people.
3) Why the fuck don't Israel just get out of our land and give us a break.

What?

^Yeah...I'm with bo_sox...

O.o

"1) Why so many UN resolutions have been passed against Israel but never enforced
2) Why nobody is coming to help our people.
3) Why the fuck don't Israel just get out of our land and give us a break."

1) Why do you type in Broken English...when English is your first language?
2) Why do you argue the whole world's against Israel...yet no one helps Gaza?
3) Why to you keep preaching to the choir, Nigee?

You know...I have completely and utterly failed to convert anyone here to my position on this...

But at least I fucking tried--gotta give me that, I sure as hell TRIED!--to make my case to a hostile crowd here...

You're just pandering for cheap +1s and a pat on the back for saying what everyone else wants to hear...even from someone as babbling, incoherent, and lacking in "the divine gift of articulate speech" as yourself.

Please.

12-hour ceasefire should be coming into effect...now. Let's hope both sides and the negotiators make good use of it.