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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
Page 1076 of 1419
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dirge (768 D(B))
28 Jul 13 UTC
new maps, new rule
I'm guessing there was probably already discussion about this that I didn't see, but I noticed on the two new maps new builds can go anywhere. In traditional rules you can only build on your start centers. I think the traditional rule provides a better balance in the game. Why was this changed on the new maps?
3 replies
Open
loki008 (183 D)
27 Jul 13 UTC
Looking for feedback and Tips on first gunboat game
I just finished my first gunboat game (as Greece) and would welcome feedback on the good, bad and the ugly. Figure this is the best way to learn

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=123103
3 replies
Open
redhouse1938 (429 D)
26 Jul 13 UTC
New classic game
Classic, Full-press, Winner-takes-all,
Password-protected, 24h phases, 475 point entry fee, anonymous.
7 replies
Open
Al Swearengen (0 DX)
28 Jul 13 UTC
Decline in the playerbase
I've noticed less players available for live games than this time last year. I didn't worry during the September slump, as I attributed that to kids going back to school. But it appears to me that the number continues to slide.
1 reply
Open
Wizard_Of_Yendor (0 DX)
27 Jul 13 UTC
No Crookedness in the Dealing
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=123756

40 point buy-in, 2-day phases, full press, anonymous players, and WTA. Join up here and I'll send you the password.
4 replies
Open
The Czech (39715 D(S))
28 Jul 13 UTC
Mods, please check your email
Thanks for all you do.
7 replies
Open
murraysheroes (526 D(B))
28 Jul 13 UTC
Looking for reliable players.
gameID=123770

Full press, anon, WTA, 3-day phases, 110 point buy-in. Reply in this thread for a password if you're interested. I have a handful of very reliable players listed in my profile, and I'm looking to find some more.
0 replies
Open
jmo1121109 (3812 D)
27 Jul 13 UTC
Processing Reset
I've added 10 hours to all games and reset the processing. If you experience any problems with your games please post here or email [email protected].
8 replies
Open
philcore (317 D(S))
23 Jul 13 UTC
(+1)
George zimmerman pulls family of 4 from a rolled SUV
http://m.usatoday.com/article/news/2575217

Strange, the article makes no mention of the race of the occupants ... ? Surely this was a race motivated rescue, no?
64 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
19 Jul 13 UTC
American Christians--Beware! THERE BE A WAR UPON THEE! (So Sayeth...Others)
A quick Wikipedia check puts the approximate number of Americans identifying as Christian at 70%; a Gallup poll in 2012 said 77%...let's say between 70-80%, with easily 85-90% of those in Congress Christian. States such as Texas STILL *REQUIRE* you to be Christian to run for governor. We support Intelligent Design more than any other Western nation, we argue against Evolution/Gay Rights/Atheism more than most Western nations...HOW is there a "War on Christianity," here, folks?
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obiwanobiwan (248 D)
24 Jul 13 UTC
"Completely off topic but the word is 'tenet' not 'tenant'. I see this several times a day on Reddit and it's driving me crazy."

Mea culpa, mea culpa... :p

"Calvin Coolidge was a Christian"

He sure was! ;) (Did you reach your Calvin Coolidge goal yet?)

"You need to read more history. Paine wrote one pamphlet. "

You need to read more--Paine also wrote "The American Crisis" in 1776 and (after the Revolution but, hey, he still wrote it) "The Age of Reason," a full-length work.

"Jefferson wrote the Declaration, but then spent all his time in Virginia until he served in Washington's cabinet."

...Well the man who shot Franz Ferdinand killed only one person, but his "contribution" to starting WWI was pretty sizable nonetheless, wouldn't you agree?

"John Adams--he was the workhorse of the Founding."

And James Madison and Alexander Hamilton?

To cite good ol' Wikipedia again:

"Gordon Wood says that Hamilton dropped his youthful religiosity during the Revolution and became, "a conventional liberal with theistic inclinations who was an irregular churchgoers at best"; however, he returned to religion in his last years.[169] Chernow says that, "Like Adams, Franklin, and Jefferson, Hamilton had probably fallen under the sway of deism, which sought to substitute reason for revelation and dropped the notion of an active God will intervene in human affairs. At the same time, he never doubted God's existence, embracing Christianity as a system of morality and cosmic justice."[170][171] While Hamilton and the other founders could be considered deists in the sense that they embraced "rational religion", they were not deists in the sense of rejecting the idea of divine intervention.[172]"

That gives Hamilton (along with the others above...including Adams, as he was listed in there) a belief in a Creator God, but only has him hold Christian ideals as good for moral teaching and REJECTING the idea of divine intervention and the rest of the like material Jefferson rejected...

And that's basically 18th century deism anyway--belief in a watchmaker God, and (unless you're Paine) that Christianity can serve as a good source of moral parable if not a true one, and that the ideas of divinity and divine intervention, resurrection, miracles, all that...not very feasible and not embraced.

Again, if you want to say that we're "founded" by a Judeo-Christian culture--well, yes.

That's practically synonymous with saying we were founded by a European culture.

But the Founders themselves aren't what most today would consider "Christian," I'll put it that way...a belief in a Creator, yes, but most Americans today would be outraged if a modern candidate announced they thought the miracles in the Bible were nonsense or that Jesus wasn't divine and not the Messiah and so on.

Which is my basic point--Judeo-Christian/European culture but that did NOT seep through into the Founding documents, which were founded on Enlightenment ideals.

"That you dismiss [Adams] so easily is ridiculous."

I don't--he can enjoy his place on the $2 bill. ;)

But in all seriousness, he IS important...

I'm just saying--Jefferson, Paine, Franklin, Hamilton...I'm so far "winning" the Enlightenment Deist vs. Christian score, those 4 to your 1 (and your 1 has a bit of an asterisk as my quote above included Adams--still, even if we give you Adams, it's 4 vs. 1 still, and as much influence as Adams had, my folks were no slouches either in terms of Founding influence to the framework of this country.)

"Assuming we accept that the founders were primarily non-Christian secularists, doesn't that put the responsibility for slavery, the oppression of women, gays, and Native Americans squarely on the secularists?"

I'll say yes and no--

Partially because of the diversity of that list (I'll explain what I mean shortly) and partially because the responsibility for those crimes go to both the few folks at the top who LET it happen and the many, many people below them who MADE it happen (and that I won't even pretend to say was mostly secularist as most common Americans were definitely Protestant.)

Now, as to that "diversity"--

I'll tackle this in two parts: Slavery (as that's the most complex case, I think) and then the others. So--

Some wanted to deal with slavery and outlaw it at the Constitutional Convention.
Some did not.
And the greater majority of the Convention realized that this sort of disagreement...

Well, it might be the sort of thing that could spark a Civil War--which is never a good thing, but seeing as we'd just won our independence and this framework was fragile as it was...even knowing it was wrong, some anti-slavery folks had to concede the point to allow the Constitution and country to get off the ground at all.

So I think it is and isn't fair to blame secularists on the slavery issue--

Certainly secularists like Jefferson WERE hypocrites, writing "all men are created equal" but holding slaves, and so yes, some secularists are to blame--by the same token, some also wanted slavery gone to make those words fully mean what they were supposed to mean and only compromised that vision to keep things from blowing apart at the ignition phase.

So they're responsible, but so are the millions of Christian masses.

Now, I can already hear the understandable objection--

"If you split the difference with secularists, saying some for and some against slavery, why don't you cut the Christians the same slack on that account?"

My answer is this:

Even though I do (and have) acknowledged the Christian Abolitionists, nevertheless--

Judeo-Christian ideology IS part of the reason slavery was permitted in America IN THE FIRST PLACE. I again cite Exodus and all the other slave-condoning books and passages I always cite when I bring up this fact--

By contrast, there's no secularist "doctrine" that said "Here is why slave-owning is not only OK, but a higher, infallible, commanding power decrees it so."

As such, I can say secularism--on its own--had nothing to do with slavery, even if some secularists (again, Jefferson) WERE hypocritical and owned slaves...

By contrast, Christianity cannot make that claim--those passages were used to condone and allow slavery in Europe, and they were used to condone, allow, and even encourage the practice in America.

With the secularists, it's Jefferson holding slaves IN SPITE or SEPARATE of his secularist ideals...

With the Christians, it's slavery being condoned BECAUSE of Christian ideals.

And for slavery, at least, that's the difference for me.

As to the other groups:

"the oppression of women,"

A shorter yes and no--the secularists of the 18th century certainly contributed to the oppression of women...but I'd argue the key term there is "18th century" and not "secularist."

No secularist ideal kept women out in the 18th century--it was "just" age-old sexism.

The closest you could point to was the idea that women were supposed to be "Mothers of Republican Virtue," which IS something of an Enlightenment ideal, but the concept of women staying at home to do the housework and provide physical and moral "support" for the man is, again, as old as time in the West...the Enlightenment era simply gave it a nicer name to make the white male adherents feel better about it.

So short-sighted and sexist, yes, but that's more of a Western/18th century issue than an issue that was inherent in Enlightenment ideals.

Next:

"gays,"

...No. Give me one scrap of evidence that secularists were anti-gay.

ESPECIALLY as most of the opposition to gays was (and still IS) due to CHRISTIAN opposition.

I think we can score this one, at least, a win for the secularists and loss for the Christians, FlemGem... ;)

"Native Americans"

Hm.

You know...I really don't know who should get most of the blame for that (in terms of WHICH white males to bash, that is.)

I think we can count this a loss on both sides...

Neither side really argued against it and both sides, both the Christian and deist Founders, were pretty OK with it at the time...
FlemGem (1297 D)
24 Jul 13 UTC
(+1)
"While Hamilton and the other founders could be considered deists in the sense that they embraced "rational religion", they were not deists in the sense of rejecting the idea of divine intervention.[172]"

That gives Hamilton (along with the others above...including Adams, as he was listed in there) a belief in a Creator God, but only has him hold Christian ideals as good for moral teaching and REJECTING the idea of divine intervention and the rest of the like material Jefferson rejected..."

Did you even READ your wikipedia quote? By Darwin, man, you're a literature major!

Concerning slavery: It was and continued to be the Reformation and Great Awakening influenced northern states that opposed slavery and the enlightenment and secularist influenced southern states that promoted and defended it.

"Judeo-Christian ideology IS part of the reason slavery was permitted in America IN THE FIRST PLACE. I again cite Exodus and all the other slave-condoning books and passages I always cite when I bring up this fact--"

This would be a fun discussion to have. I've never been impressed at all by your ability to read and interpret the Bible. Not only are you bigoted on the issue, you seem to have little if any understanding of the discipline of systematic theology. Suffice to say you interpret the Bible's passages on slavery in exactly the way a 17th century secularized, capitalist, cultural Christian would have interpreted them, and I can hardly imagine that's something you'd be proud of if you stopped to think about it for a little while.

"By contrast, there's no secularist "doctrine" that said "Here is why slave-owning is not only OK, but a higher, infallible, commanding power decrees it so."

Oh, but there is. "Survival of the fittest...our race is superior to yours, as is manifest in that nature has chosen us to be more powerful than you at this moment, so we will ignore your supposed humanity and degrade you to our own advantage." Sure, "survival of the fittest" is an anachronistic phrase for colonial America, but it's really no different than "might makes right" which has been around pretty much forever. Can you demonstrate that secularism has a *rational* doctrine against "might makes right" that is not borrowed from Christianity? Christianity, on the other hand, is rooted at its heart in the death of an innocent man at the hands of the mighty and God's vindication of that man, a pretty solid basis for arguing against "might makes right".

So even if certain Bible passages were (wrongly) used to justify slavery once it got started by profit-seeking capitalists (and I think we can agree that slavery is/has been a universal human problem), it was also the Bible (rightly interpreted) that provided the philosophical basis to under-cut the slave trade.

"With the secularists, it's Jefferson holding slaves IN SPITE or SEPARATE of his secularist ideals...

With the Christians, it's slavery being condoned BECAUSE of Christian ideals."

Nope, I think we've just blown that up. Unless you need a deeper look at the Bible passages on slavery, which I'd be happy to discuss in depth if you were willing/able to approach the text with an open mind.

"A shorter yes and no--the secularists of the 18th century certainly contributed to the oppression of women...but I'd argue the key term there is "18th century" and not "secularist."
No secularist ideal kept women out in the 18th century--it was "just" age-old sexism."

See, here's your bias rearing its ugly head again. When you talk about secularism it's not anything inherent in secularism, it's just "age-old sexism", but you can't extend the "18th century" excuse to religious people.

"So short-sighted and sexist, yes, but that's more of a Western/18th century issue than an issue that was inherent in Enlightenment ideals."

Again, yes, it's a universal human problem. Here's how the Bible tackles the issue: men and women are both created in the image of God; Jesus gave his life for both men and women; and in Christ there is no male nor female, slave nor free, Jew or Greek or barbarian or Scythian. As a Christian I have a strong basis for arguing in favor of gender (and racial) equality. Science, on the other hand, shows us that men and women are different, not equal. So on what *rational* basis does the secularist argue for women's equality? Why, if it is in their own self interest, would one gender *not* dominate the other, if possible? If women could engineer a society where men were second class citizens, why wouldn't or shouldn't they?

Gays....okay, I'll give you a point on that one. Well, maybe half a point. If secularists were so awesome with human rights they should have been further ahead of the game on that one.

Native Americans....My impression is that Native peoples were much more likely to get fair or at least peaceful treatment from deeply committed Biblical Christians such as Quakers, Moravians, and Mennonites. The more religiously oriented New England colonies managed to get along with the Native peoples for a couple of decades, while the profit-motivated Jamestown colony was fighting indiginous people within the first year. Furthermore, it was the irreligious adventurers who (illegally) pushed the frontier into Kentucky (Squire Boone was a lapsed Quaker; Simon Kenton fled Virginia to beat a murder rap, etc.) and instigated the brutal frontier fighting there. Generally speaking I think the church was about 30 years behind the frontier. So we can score that +2 for the anabaptist/pietists, +1 for the Puritans,and 0 for the irreligious.

Anyhoo, this has been fun. I'm sure we'll get plenty of milage out of it. Hope you're having a great Wednesday morning!
dipplayer2004 (1110 D)
24 Jul 13 UTC
The Age of Reason had no major effect on American history. When it comes to Paine's importance, it is solely based on one pamphlet
Okay Obi,

Number one: No true Scotsman? Really? And a beautifully nonsensical version at that. Sure Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner, sexist (although he did see to a very good education for his own daughter), who approved the use of government buildings for church services, services that he attended almost without fail saying that as president he should provide an example for the people. Sure he supported missionary activities among the native Americans, and went so far as to have a priest and mission receiving government funds under the Treaty of the Kaskasians (sp?). But he wasn't being a true secularist then?


He was being a true secularist when he was doing all the things you like?

One thing we tend to forget is that these guys we're politicians and when you go looking through their papers to find out what they truly believe, you tend to see that they truly believe what they think their audience will be most responsive to. For instance when writing to his evangelical protestant base (the Baptists loved him) he assured them that the government wouldn't be used against them because there would always be a wall of separation between church and state.

How on earth do you suppose to find the true beliefs of such a contradictory man? A man who on this subject said "I am as far as I can tell a sect of one".



Second to further work on the idea that the founding fathers we're overwhelmingly deist. Here is a link to a study where the research is done and finds exactly the opposite They we're overwhelmingly Protestant Christians. I'll provide the link next because I cannot figure out how to keep multiple tabs open on this tablet :-s
http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html

This says that they we're overwhelmingly Protestant (about half we're Anglican)

That shouldn't be read as a claim that they we're specifically putting together a government that would be based on Christianoty
That is to say specifically based on Christianity, but I also don't buy into any notion that it was specifically set up to curtail the influence of religion.
mendax (321 D)
27 Jul 13 UTC
It's worth noting that at the same time there was a growing secular movement in France, at the very least, and this no doubt had some heavy influence on the eventual form of government in the USA.
HumanWave (337 D)
27 Jul 13 UTC
The resident board glee geek has figured out james Madison and Thomas Jefferson probably without reading one full book. I'm sure historians everywhere are unbelievably jealous.
HumanWave (337 D)
27 Jul 13 UTC
HumanWave (337 )
07:12 PM
Obiwans problem, as always, is that he doesn't care about context. Cut and paste history/politics/theology without any broad understanding. He tries to make up for that with book long posts of fluff
HumanWave (337 D)
27 Jul 13 UTC
(+1)
So basically a typical college undergrad
HumanWave (337 D)
27 Jul 13 UTC
"The more religiously oriented New England colonies managed to get along with the Native peoples for a couple of decades, while the profit-motivated Jamestown colony was fighting indiginous people within the first year. "

This is false... If I must ill explain. Miles standish was a sonofabitch.

No secularist ideal kept women out in the 18th century--it was "just" age-old sexism."

Winner of the least historical statement of the year. If it was "age old sexism" why did the women of the state of New Jersey lose the vote? The funny thing about the enlightenment is that it relied a great deal on the nature of things, people, people the world etc. As a result women were largely disenfranchised under enlightenment inspired political movements. A woman's nature was the weaker of the sexes and enlightenment thought taught that no matter how much money or influence or intelligence a woman accrued she was still a woman and not fit for life in the state. That isn't "age old" that is a product of the enlightenment.



161 replies
Sbyvl36 (439 D)
27 Jul 13 UTC
Need Replacement
0 replies
Open
smoky (771 D)
27 Jul 13 UTC
is there admin online ?
i want to talk with him becouse i see 2 player abusing!
4 replies
Open
orathaic (1009 D(B))
21 Jul 13 UTC
(+1)
Gays parents better for kids?
m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/3388498
152 replies
Open
krellin (80 DX)
25 Jul 13 UTC
Obama Bans Students from Speech
Free speech...er....Free *LISTENING* apparently is dead in Obama world
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/354434/college-republicans-denied-admittance-obama-speech-nathan-harden
OK, I *maybe* get not admitting Republicans...er, no I don't, he's EVERYONE'S President, is he not..but excluding those with "Patriotic" garb as security threats. Nice move, Hussein Obama. The Brotherhoods is proud...
75 replies
Open
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
26 Jul 13 UTC
Police Have No Duty to Protect You
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/zero_for_hero_5Aw3bMHF7vSPG7f27c0jOO

"Because “no direct promises of protection were made to Mr. Lozito,” the police had “no special duty” to protect him." ... from a psychotic spree killer using a deadly weapon? ........... Anyone else see the irony here?
20 replies
Open
redhouse1938 (429 D)
19 Jul 13 UTC
Obama's giving a speech on the Zimmerman thing
is he fully conscious? Is this really happening?
202 replies
Open
krellin (80 DX)
26 Jul 13 UTC
(+1)
Obama(care) Destroying Middle Class
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jun/16/obamacare-benefits-mandate-could-further-phase-out/?page=all

read on...
6 replies
Open
TBagJohn (243 D(B))
25 Jul 13 UTC
(+1)
Not Getting to 100 Points
I thought that if I finished a game and I was under 100 D, I'd be "moved" to 100 D.

I've finished a couple of games and still way down on the points - 44. Why is this?
25 replies
Open
futurewolfie (100 D)
26 Jul 13 UTC
Pausing?
We're attempting to Pause a game as one player is gone for the weekend. However, certain players haven't checked in yet and so they haven't voted pause. The player who is leaving has left, but already voted to pause.

My question is, if the game progresses to the next phase, will the "Pause" vote reset, or will all the Pause votes stay in place unless cancelled by the voting player? Can we finish up our orders to progress to the start of the next round and then vote "Pause"?
5 replies
Open
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
26 Jul 13 UTC
Detroit - WTF are you thinking
http://money.cnn.com/2013/07/26/news/economy/detroit-bankruptcy-arena/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Build a $400,000,000+ arena while you are *bankrupt*! That's great economics. Good luck getting bailed out for that one in five years.
4 replies
Open
Lando Calrissian (100 D(S))
26 Jul 13 UTC
BEACHES' JAZZ
Any chance for a mapleleaf sighting tonight?
1 reply
Open
Hot Fuzz (159 D)
26 Jul 13 UTC
A new player needed
Turkey has gone astray

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=123609&msgCountryID=0&rand=9617#chatboxanchor
0 replies
Open
krellin (80 DX)
26 Jul 13 UTC
(+1)
Feds Demands PASSWORDS From Internet Companies
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57595529-38/feds-tell-web-firms-to-turn-over-user-account-passwords/

Good read - timely and a scary future vision. Cory Doctorow's "Little Brother" Give it a read and let me know what you think. It's the modern day Orwell's "1984" and should be required reading.
1 reply
Open
Invictus (240 D)
21 Jul 13 UTC
(+1)
How that "psychic" really found the boy's body
http://www.centerforinquiry.net/blogs/entry/the_new_best_case_for_psychics_did_intuitive_visions_locate_missing_boy/

Nothing supernatural at all. Obviously.
138 replies
Open
mapleleaf (0 DX)
26 Jul 13 UTC
(+1)
Adolf Hitler was always nice to his dogs.
The race of his dogs was never considered, nor their religious beliefs.
4 replies
Open
trip (696 D(B))
25 Jul 13 UTC
Lusthog Squad-6
Ready to resume tomorrow.
5 replies
Open
Saviour Krolis (121 D(B))
25 Jul 13 UTC
Cheating
Mod, please check e-mail concerning cheating on live game ASAP. Thank you.
6 replies
Open
krellin (80 DX)
25 Jul 13 UTC
When Cats Attack - Dateline France
"feral cats launched an attack on a young woman...dragging her to the ground and mauling her..." OH MY...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/10201769/Warning-to-tourists-in-France-after-attack-by-feral-cats.html
* I guess this is one way to keep those pesky Americans out of France
7 replies
Open
snowden007 (102 D)
25 Jul 13 UTC
What does it mean when there is a dash (-) next to a country name?
What does it mean when there is a dash (-) instead of an double exclaimation point (!!) or check next to a player before the next turn?
6 replies
Open
Nikola Maric Eto (24945 D)
25 Jul 13 UTC
(+1)
Motion for a new phase length
When playing live games on maps America and Modern Europe, there is not enough time to move 20 or more units in 5 minutes. So, can there be a new phase length of 6 or 7 minutes?
9 replies
Open
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