Now all i need is someone to say that taxation is theft... (when it's clearly more like bribery ;)

bribery at the end of a gun

You can chose not to pay a bribe. You have no such choice in taxes. You can chose foolishly to stand up to a thief, not really in taxes. No taxes are a far more sinister thing than *either* bribery or highway robbery.

Taxes are slavery.

Taxes are necessary for a state to exist. A state is necessary to preserve order and protect liberty. Saying they are "slavery" is nonsense.

Now, that doesn't mean the current tax regime is just. I'd much prefer no income tax at all and that there be a national sales tax.

No, a state could instead acquire the means of production and then rent them back to the operators at a profit. Allowing 'corporations' to run things, but banning them from owning property... Even just having a state claim all the land. Then no taxation, just how the state spends it's income.

And i think 0% sales tax (VAT as we call it) along with a decent income tax (progressive) and a basic income would be closer to an 'ideal' regime (no need for sales/service tax, if whatever a person/company makes in profit is taxed as income)

Invictus - I never said taxes were unnecessary. I simply said that they are slavery. After all, every good liberal that thinks a man working for a corporation is a slave...and they PAY you. So how can someone confiscating my money under threat of force not be considered my slave-master, regardless of the necessity to fund the government.

And...you could fund the government by means other than an income tax....just saying....

Krellin, come now.

If we were still under an absolute monarchy, you could have a point.

But in this country, we have a duly elected government that at least in theory represents us. So its not like some faceless asshole is coming to take our money because he's got the monopoly on force. We elected the congress, etc, and they passed these laws. So yes, we consented to taxation. Its not slavery.

"But in this country, we have a duly elected government that at least in theory represents us. So its not like some faceless asshole is coming to take our money because he's got the monopoly on force. We elected the congress, etc, and they passed these laws. So yes, we consented to taxation. Its not slavery."

So what if I didn't vote for them and I state they don't represent me? In any other context, if X guy is coming to me saying he represents me, and he voted to appropriate some of my money, and he takes it by force, and I say X guy does not represent me, then X guy would rightfully be accused of robbery. At no point can it be stated I consented to any of this. (And, actually, the IRS agents who would come kick down your door to arrest you and collect unpaid taxes *are* about as close to faceless as it gets...)

I find it more convincing (though ultimately still not) to argue that states are somehow different moral agents from individuals, and thus subject to different moral standards, including on the matter of robbery, than it is to argue that states are subject to the same standards but somehow are not committing robbery by doing the exact deed while having the audacity to claim they aren't.

If teh gvoernment represents us, how come Congresses approval rating is what? Below 30%? And Obama isn't much higher.

In the scope of things, I would say that our government does not represent us *at all* - every word they speak is expected to be a lie, so nobody really knows who/what they are voting for.

I *sure* (rolls eyes...) you are aware of the latest bit of Obamacare news...when Obama was telling everyone in glorious speeches that everyone could keep their health care, the government had already reported internally that they *knew* millions would be forced out of their current coverage. Nothing but lies from our government officials...and yet people claim they represent us? *LAUGHABLE*

The point is that we're not living under the thumb of a monarch or some such that claims to hold autocratic power and can tax and take whatever they want.

Is the system perfect? No. But we still have the power to vote them out.

Honestly, what it comes down to is that the American people have precisely the government they deserve. 30 percent approval rate, but incumbents are re-elected time and time again. Its always that other congressman that needs to go, right?

"In the scope of things, I would say that our government does not represent us *at all*"

Being that the median net worth of Congress is just a tick under $1 million, I'd say they only represent themselves. That and the fact that most are old white men. And that's not even before we get to political beliefs.

" And that's not even before we get to political beliefs. "

They have no beliefs...at least no identifiable beliefs.

Well, Americans worship money, so its not surprising that we chose rich people to represent us.

Sorry, again, we have precisely the elected rulers we deserve.

"I mean, god damn, the only reason we can even *have* this argument is because of computers."

Call me when webdip debates add to multi-factor productivity or increase our standard of living.

How can taxation be slavery? Slavery is forced labor. Expropriation of property is not forced labor, even if it were 100%.

Nor is it theft. Currency is government property. The only reason you have any money at all is because it is issued by the government. The only reason it has *value* at all as money is because of taxation. Without taxation, the dollars in your pocket would be worthless paper.

Oh....I forgot....Putin is a teacher --- his so-called "work" involves zero labor or effort.
Abusing children for a living takes no effort.

Fabricating resumes and lying to job applicants takes effort?

"Nor is it theft. Currency is government property. The only reason you have any money at all is because it is issued by the government. The only reason it has *value* at all as money is because of taxation. Without taxation, the dollars in your pocket would be worthless paper."

That's flatly not true, but I'm not really interested in discussing it with you.

Naturally.

Someone with an ounce of work ethic and/or political tolerance among the libertarian right please explain to me why US dollars as fiat currency acquire value absent taxation.

So Putin admits that he fabricated his resume....there's a big surprise.

"ounce of work ethic"

It takes more than that! And I am quite tolerant.

"Nor is it theft. Currency is government property. The only reason you have any money at all is because it is issued by the government. The only reason it has *value* at all as money is because of taxation. Without taxation, the dollars in your pocket would be worthless paper."

I have no idea why we are discussing currency on this thread.

But my issue is that, if we accept your claim that the government has a right to tax US dollars because it issues them, the government should not have the right to tax economic activity with alternative currencies. However the government demands taxation on goods/services/labour & business, regardless of the currency used. Thus the right to tax, cannot originate in the origin of the currency.

Give examples of taxes on activity conducted in foreign currency, please.

Well....why don't you say something in a foreign language, and I will certainly feel as taxed by you as I do when you babble in English...

Barter is taxable, if you are bartering work that you do for your primary profession: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/personal-finance/even-barter-transactions-have-a-tax-implication/article4311784/

Founder of local currency pays taxes on any earnings he makes, has to report income even if it is paid in equal dollars: http://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2013/07/23/funny-money-or-new-economy-alternative-currency-raises-tax-other-challenges/
The site acknowledges that most people don't pay taxes on their alternative currencies, but that they are legally required too.

Barter and Local currencies are "taxable", proof enough for you that taxation rights aren't linked to monetary production?

And a quote from one of the folks at Equal: "My name is Deneene Brockington and I am the Director of Equal Dollars Community Currency. We are very excited to be featured in this article alongside other community/alternative currencies. Thank you Kelly Phillips Erb.

Equal Dollars has been operating since 1995 and we have instituted formal accounting and bookkeeping practices to track and maintain records of our currency. For every business that participates in our system and receives Equal Dollars as income, we collect W-9 forms, issue 1099B forms and report all business or sole proprietary income to the IRS. We use a web-based trading system to track all online transactions and member accounts. Our members can receive Equal Dollars as pay (which they are obligated to pay US Dollar taxes on) and we track that in our online system. We also allow our members to receive an optional Equal Dollars gratuity or “thank you” for community service projects, which is not a payment for service and cannot be “earned.”

The US Dollar currency system is debt based and profit driven and is not designed to address many of the social issues that plague our underserved communities. If a profit cannot be made off my labor, I am unemployed. If the wholesale food distributor or farmer for whatever reason can’t sell and make a profit off the food, it goes into the waste stream. If someone can’t make a profit from the unoccupied land, it sits vacant. We’re saying: Wait just because you don’t generate a profit for someone, doesn’t mean you or it doesn’t have value. Our members can opt to be thanked in Equal Dollars for doing community service for nonprofits throughout the city. They participate in street clean-ups, volunteer at their churches, clean vacant lots, help members of their community, and feed each other all through the exchange of Equal Dollars.

We welcome you to visit our website: www.equaldollars.org to learn more or to contact us with any questions or comments: [email protected]."

http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/U.S.-Citizens-and-Resident-Aliens-Abroad

"If you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, the rules for filing income, estate, and gift tax returns and paying estimated tax are generally the same whether you are in the United States or abroad. Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside."

So, live and work in Germany and get paid in Euros and you *still* pay federal income tax. That would be income tax on a foreign currency. And I know this after working there for six months and getting my pay in Euros.