Two independent responses, Sicarius:

1) With regard to police officers, I owe my life to one already. I'm quite satisfied with the legal system in my area because it's served me well. Your view of the police is ignorant at best; your generalizations are quite ridiculous.

2) I believe everything I read because now I only read fiction, and all I read in fiction is incredibly real in my head. It's an amazing world, even more so when the author doesn't bog you down with political implications for the real world. I've never believed newspapers, and I've definitely ignored the details in history books. I've learned through comparison of article and experience how to glean the truth from all of these documents. To ignore them is to cut yourself off from the world, and in your severely limited experience, how can you claim to know truth? How can you know more than what your surroundings are, instantly disbelieving anything from an external source?

I'm not particularly interested in the seventy people that agreed with you because they could all be misguided people or just plain morons; I'm not particularly interested in the four people that disagreed with you because, even if they were lying, I both suspect that their motives inferred greater utility than yours and respect the structure of authority they represent, which keeps me safe from people who intend to harm me. Now, I realize that these people most likely don't intend to harm me so much as appease some compulsion, and I might just be between them and survival. However, this structure is on my side, for now, and as such, I'll support it even when I disagree with minor policies, because they are far less significant than the very existence of my protection.

It's sad that I require such protection, that we need government. If everyone could understand a few universal principles, we could live without it. Too bad that's quite literally impossible.

I just wanna say that if anyone here ever met me and real life you would probably like me. I very rarely talk about politics ever. I'm a very fun guy.
I'm pretty sure most of you dont talk about politics this much in real life either

I didnt say every thing you read is a lie. I meant that it's a good thing to read news and history books and such with a healthy skepticism. like "this is close to what happened" or "this is probably what happened" instead of just "this is what happened period.

As far as the police thing goes, it was police brutality completely.
I'm not under the illusion that every cop is a "bad guy"
I know a few (very few) cops who are good guys.
but they maintain order with the threat of force, and no group who does so can ever be wholly benevolent.

ok here is what happened. we had a big barbeque on private property. we had some speakers talking about certain issues and political events. as there were about 100-200 people there, the cheers and such were loud.
normally maybe a squad or two would come and tell us to tone it down, or maybe even to pack it in.
but because there was a circle A sign, and the speakers were political dissidents, they sent about 20 riot police instead.
there was lots of screaming and protests, as the police said if we did not disperse they would fire tear gas
now at this point I'd like to point out that we were well within our first amendment rights
anyway, a couple of us went out to talk to them, to assure them that we were completly peaceful, and the property owner actually invited them to the barbeque.
they declined and reitereated their threat. I said "thats bullshit, we know our rights"
I said it, I didnt scream it. I didnt have a threatening manner, I was actually walking away from him. so he charged me and fuckin beat me. that is assault right there, so me fighting back was self defense.
I was the first one hit so it was very visible to all. it escaleted and there were more injuries, but all eyes were on me cus I was the first one.
Also, the neighbor who actually called the cops testified in my defense.

Well, Sicarius, if it counts for anything, I believe that your charge was exaggerated. If not completely trumped up. I'm surprised you weren't acquitted, did you have a previous history before that charge?

I don't have the most pleasant experiences with police officers either, despite that I'm an upper middle class citizen. I don't mean to make any generalizations, I'm sure there are some very friendly police officers, I've just been unfortunate in the ones that I've met.

There was a time when a gang of muggers drove around my school mugging people, and the school and police were notified, and the description of the car and the muggers were sent out. I was walking home with some friends when the car of the same description drove over to us slowly, and one hispanic male, and three african-american males looked out at us and one of them gestured at my friend's ipod... Seeing that they matched the description exactly and were undoubtedly the muggers, we looked around for the police. There was a police officer about 20 meters away from us, observing the scene, and as we approached him yelling "Excuse me officer!", he actually jumped on to his bike, and rode uphill away from us... To serve and protect right?

I was at a pub a while back, for a friend's birthday. It was definitely illegal... there were maybe fifty adolescents participating in underage drinking, and many had pot. Well anyways, a pair of cops came, and scouted the place, and left. But later, they returned with about 6 six squad cars, surrounded the place, and and then entered the bar. Now, no doubt, what we were doing was illegal, but nobody was being rowdy or anything... but they proceeded to arbitrarily arrest people, I don't really know how they chose... everyone was just as guilty as the next, but they started doing that. And one girl, whose boyfriend was just arrested stood and told the officer that "this is bullshit. I know my rights" (almost exact same wording eh?) and the officer promptly arrested her and led her very forcefully to the squad car. I mean, this all wouldn't be much on it's own, except that they proceeded to pepper bomb the establishment, with dozens of people inside. For no reason. They just shot them in.

It doesn't help that the few people I know that want to become police officers will almost certainly be corrupt and abusive. They almost certainly do not want to serve or protect, and just want a gun and their hip and the free reign to do what they want. They're dishonest and have low-self esteem.

I think that most of the problems with the police force could be solved if it was made into a competitive profession, such as medicine. So that it required more post-secondary education, with required courses on ethics, political science, and other such things that would help them be ethical police officers. I think it should be a high paid job and generally respected, rather than the love-hate relationship that they have now. They should have extensive procedures to determine admission to a precinct, so as to weed the unethical, unstable, and the insecure.

whenever I see a cop I approach and ask him why he has decided to make a career repressing his fellow citizens, using force to ensure that power remains in the hands of the priveleged few. I tell them that if they really want to help people they should join the fire department.

stories like ours tend to be the norm my friend.

I had charges of disturbing the peace. I was charged with inciting a riot, and even though I was found innocent it was still on my record, so it probably didnt help

My run-ins with the police are much nicer. I think I have a potential reason for this: I make sure not to break the law, not even questionably close.

Once I was outside in a park with my friends. We were just hanging out, you know, nothing illegal. Then a drunk driver sped along the adjoining street and just about went up the curb and killed a friend of mine. She was so frightened she had to go home. As we were leaving in our cars (this is about midnight) we see flashing lights up ahead. The police, bless them, had apprehended the man and he was being put in the back of a squad car. Police officers uphold order safety and justice.

Another time, a friend of mine started acting foolishly toward a police officer. Asking him all kinds of questions like "Have you ever been in a gun fight?" and other such questions I am sure police hate to answer. But the man patiently answered his questions and took pains to point out the dangers of handling guns. He didn't have to do that.

there are exceptions to any generalization

Indeed, so why make any?

just because there are exceptions does not make them untrue.

for example, black people have very curly hair.
there are pure black africans that have straight hair
but it's safe to assume that their hair is curly

maybe he generalization just doesnt apply to you.
"cops are dicks"
like 95% of he cops I meet are

the ones you know may not be, but to me the generalization is still true. if all the cops I know are assholes, then the generalization is true for me.

:-'(

is there something you would like to add?

What's the use.... maybe you're in phase... maybe one day a policeman will save your life and you'll rethink things, it just sounds to me like your like is "A Series of Unfortunate Events." so you decided to "Screw the Rules, I [don't] have money."

I was referring to alamothe actually

but all the conclusions I've drawn about police is firsthand. sorry if I dont watch enough cop hero movies

Personally, I love the cops. I've done a few illegal things like toilet paper houses, soap cars, push all the buttons on all of the elevators in a 60-some story hotel, nothing too crazy. I've been caught before, but the cops are generally lenient. They pulled over our get-away vehicle after we did some soaping. He could have fined us, but all that happened was he gave us a speech about how we shouldn't mess with other people's property and then gave us a warning for a broken tail-light.
In my experience, the people that the cops tend to be less lenient towards are the real jerks and scumbags.

Cops generally aren't there to repress people. I know the police chief in my home town told me he'd get me my license to carry as soon as I was of age (fast-track the normally three month process in my state) and that he'd let me shoot at the station's sidearm range as soon as I got my first pistol. I don't really know the guy except from asking him questions about gun laws. He's just all-around a nice guy. So are his partners. I've never been so happy to receive a warning for speeding in my life; they're just so friendly.

The surprising bit is that crime in our town has decreased significantly (to nothing) since this chief was selected. We used to have problems with high school pricks--everything from drunk driving to damaging private property. Something he did worked, and I've seen the difference with my own eyes.

I seen a cop hit someone with a motorcycle
lots of tear gas
lots of pepper spray and mace
lots of rubber bullets and batons and water cannons, and I even seen a cop try to fire live ammunition at a crowd

as I said before, there are cops who are good guys, I know a couple, but no one who rules by force is truly benevolent.
they work to keep the few in power and the rest powerless.
they are exist to perpetuate oppression and fear.
some cops may not even be aware of the roles they fill, but they do

Well, generally force isn't their first choice. They are quite happy to arrest people peacefully. I've had a few bad experiences with police officers, but I haven't made any generalizations. What we were doing is considered illegal. I'm sure that most police are nice folks, just like most people are, and police officers are people too. They don't oppress, they're there to give peace of mind, so that you aren't oppressed by your fear of the unlawful. They don't perpetuate fear, except to the unlawful. There are very few innocent persons that actively fear law enforcement.

Perhaps you've been wronged by police in the past, but I'm sure that you've done your share of law-breaking, and in our society, there is a price to be paid. It doesn't help that you provoke them with your assumptions and generalizations. If you went up to anyone in the street and said the same sort of thing, they would be extremely offended, and I wouldn't be surprised if they attacked you as well. It just happens that police officers are more powerful in their position. That doesn't make them any more guilty though. That's like blaming a man for being large and strong. Sure, he's a bad guy if he assaults and vandalizes, but he's a good guy if he's helpful and protective.

the officers themselves dont usually make a conscious decision to oppress, they are tools of those in power, used to keep those few in power.

there are alot of incidents that illustrate how unjust they are
just of the top of my head
eviction of south central farm
shooting of brad will
beating of malice green
the framing of leonard peltier
framing of eric mcdavid
excessive violence at the g8, wto, oaxaca, immigration, stonewall, undgungst, and green team protests, the massacre at wounded knee (1970's)
um, my beating
injustices I've seen that go on and on
these are just off the top of my head, and I can keep going.

yes police are 'nice'
but when it really matters they are machines of oppression

200th post. I dont know if I've seen a thread last this long. not even the religion or politics ones. though thats what this basically is

heres another I just seen
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/25/sean.bell.trial/index.html

brad will captures his own death by police on camera

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o22L-xEVRqY

"I'm sure that most police are nice folks, just like most people are, and police officers are people too. They don't oppress, they're there to give peace of mind, so that you aren't oppressed by your fear of the unlawful. They don't perpetuate fear, except to the unlawful. There are very few innocent persons that actively fear law enforcement" -Chrispminis

I agree completely, I feel neither afraid nor oppressed. All of the policemen I know (4) are even-tempered and all-around nice guys. I'm sure that there are a fair share of jerks out there, but you'll find that in almost any career path.

Sicarius, based on what you've revealed about yourself in this forum, I'd rather have the current authority structures than have you in power. Don't take it personally. I just don't want someone who can't reason to be in charge of anything.

I dont want to be in power. you really werent listening huh

I dont want ANYBODY to be in power

Sicarius, here are the synonyms for the word Anarchy: lawlessness, disorder, chaos, confusion, misrule

And this appeals to you?

Well it does to him because he takes after the Rousseau-style view on human nature.

Anarchy - "A theoretical social state in which there is no governing person or body of persons, but each individual has absolute liberty (without the implication of disorder)."

if disorder chaos and confusion appealed to me I would go to wal mart on a sale day

Sicarius, having no one in power is equivalent to having everyone in power, because power operates in hierarchy or "levels".