What your car scenario demonstrates is a complete lack of understanding.

This is me saying I am going to put a baby behind your car tyre, you acknowledging that you want to run me over, but driving through my baby to do so instead of driving around. You sir are the murderer, not I.

And I'm not absolving Hamas. We'll talk about Hamas when you accept the role of the Israeli government in killing 400+ innocent people in revenge of 2 civilians deaths.

"Let's be clear, Hamas have not been attributed to more than 2 deaths."

And the 33 Israeli soldiers were killed by...?

"Israel has physically ended the lives of 800 people in Gaza, of which 400+ are deemed non-combatants. I don't give a fuck about your concept of responsibility or human shields, I'm talking about physical killing."

And *I* am saying the world is not so simplistic as you make it out to be...

And if Hamas are the hostage takers in this scenario of yours (which they'd have to be, if Israel's the cops shooting the hostages) then may I ask why you're defending the people taking the hostages since...well, by definition, hostages are generally held by their captors against their will?

So either Hamas is holding Gaza captive, in which case, Israel fighting those captors should be a good thing, or else your example is rather flawed.

"I'm talking basic rules of causation."

But you, as with everyone else in this debate, stop the chain of causation when it's convenient for YOU.

Shooting kills a person, that's causation...
What about what caused the person to shoot?
And what about the cause before that?
And the cause before that?

You stop with Israelis accidentally hitting civilians, *I* prefer to take causation one further and point to the REASON they accidentally hit someone, which would be that someone used them as a human shield...and then from there you can ask why they used them as a human shield...because Israel's engaging Hamas...why is Israel engaging Hamas...because Hamas fired 2,000 rockets into Israel and violated Israeli national sovereignty with their tunnel system...

And so on and so on, you can keep going, but DON'T just stop when it's convenient for your political ends. Be more genuine and less transparent than that.

"And I'm not absolving Hamas. We'll talk about Hamas when you accept the role of the Israeli government in killing 400+ innocent people in revenge of 2 civilians deaths."

1. You've done nearly nothing BUT make excuses for Hamas' conduct on your end, whereas I've stated about a dozen times now that Israel's at least culpable to some extent in this...you continue to act like Hamas are the Students of the ABC from Les Miserables rather than an internationally-recognized terrorist syndicate.

2. Again, what about the 33 Israeli soldiers?

3. NOT in revenge for 2 civilian deaths, in RESPONSE to more than 2,000 rockets being fired into their territory--which are all attempts to kill people, and the only reason they haven't is that Israel has the resources to defend itself, thankfully, that's still Hamas trying to kill its people, and Israel has more than a right to respond to that--and the tunnels which violate Israeli national sovereignty.

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/French-FM-French-Jews-are-living-in-fear-368724

Jewish civilians are bearing the brunt of this war too--across the globe.

As JPost and CNN both report, everywhere from Latin America to Belgium and Austria and ESPECIALLY in France, Jewish civilians are being targeted and attacked, Israeli soccer players in Austria were attacked, synagogues and stores have been burned, chants to gas and kill the Jews of France...

NOT to kill Israelis--to kill JEWS. LOCAL JEWS.

THEIR Jews.

And while the rise of right-wing parties in Europe (oh, goody, because THAT'S a phrase you want to hear!) is partially to blame, in many of these countries and in France especially, a LOT of this violence against Jews has been perpetrated by mobs of Muslims.

"In the first three months of 2014 more Jews left France for Israel than at any other time since the Jewish state was created in 1948, citing economic hardships in the stagnating economy but also rising anti-Semitism as a factor."

It tells you something when French Jews view ISRAEL--a nation being rocketed day and night now--as the safer alternative to France.

This is as bad as Antisemitism has gotten in Europe in DECADES, and its no joke. It's not just because of Israel--everything from economic factors to old hatreds to those right-wing parties to the clash of Jews and Muslims (both historically "others" in many European countries) has led to this.

But we don't hear about pro-Hamas Muslims targeting the Jewish population of France, or targeting them worldwide...THOSE civilians, and THOSE burned and destroyed shops and synagogues, apparently don't count.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/07/24/egypt-opposes-hamas-gaza-conflict/13043353/

^Again, Israel's not alone in its stance...

"Jewish civilians are bearing the brunt of this war too--across the globe."

Why do you think this is? You have to have a pretty warped view to think the majority of the world is acting out like this because they are pro-Hamas instead of anti-Israel., while at the same time Israel's aggression itself is giving real anti-Semites perfect cover to act out how they've always felt.

"If you accidentally set your baby down behind my back wheels and I accidentally back up over it, *I* have just killed your baby, but YOU, for putting it there in the first place, could potentially be sued for child endangerment, reckless endangerment, child neglect, gross negligence, and potentially even be viewed as complicit in a manslaughter charge.

Now, if you INTENTIONALLY put that baby behind my back tire, because you'd rather those tires hit the baby first before it hits you, then you REALLY have some moral and legal culpability."

Except in this metaphor you are not culpable because you do not know the baby is there. Israel knows full well the baby is there, actually hates the baby itself, and is purposefully driving over the baby again and again.

And this idea that the UN school was hit by a wayward Hamas rocket is ridiculous. The IDF stated as much and then rescinded that statement because they were caught in a lie, but you continue to believe them. The fact that you give as much credence to IDF's claims in a situation like that compared to the UN, when the IDF has a vested interest in not being blamed, is beyond the pale of all ignorance.

like look at this sentence

"which would be perfectly consistent with firing from Beit Hanoun and being knocked or blown off course (as these aren't the most accurate rockets) and, again, the nature of the blast site is more consistent with the smaller rockets of Hamas than major Israeli artillery."

this is unfounded, unsourced, pure distilled bullshit of the highest grade. Multiple rockets hit the school in quick succession, something that Hamas' unguided rockets, straying rockets would not be capable of. As well, the death toll was 15+ with 100 wounded, which would be the single highest death toll from a Hamas rocket in the history of this conflict

https://twitter.com/kristenchick/statuses/492362196546908160
https://twitter.com/BoothWilliam/statuses/492365042197987330

As of 1967, the Jewish people determined that playing nice with neighbors will never work out, and that's not for lack of trying. Anti-semitism will reign forever until the end of humanity or the end of Judaism. Obi's rants are rooted in this belief. Israel's actions over the past 45 years are rooted in this belief. The world can scream all they want about the unjust things Israel has done in occupying land or how they treat Palestinians, but the fact of the matter is that Israel wouldn't survive if it didn't get tougher on all the factions that want it and all Jews destroyed. And without Israel, Jews really wouldn't have anywhere to call home, except maybe in parts of America, where they aren't despised and irrationally hated.

I've struggled reading about all of the claims of genocide at the hands of Israel over the past week. Most are blind rants that bleed anti-semitism. Some are legitimate though, and Israel has certainly been very aggressive in Gaza to the point that all of their efforts to minimalize civilian casualties simply cannot avoid all of them while they prioritize the extermination of Hamas' terror activities in the region.

If the world wants Israel to lay down its aggressive expansion policies, then anti-semitism needs to be condemned worldwide. Israel is going to vote protection over being nice neighbors until that point. Unfortunately, anti-semitism isn't going away anytime soon, and the catch-22 is that Israel's aggressive protective measures only ensure that.

"Except in this metaphor you are not culpable because you do not know the baby is there. Israel knows full well the baby is there, actually hates the baby itself, and is purposefully driving over the baby again and again."

No, they DON'T always know when civilians are there...

" And without Israel, Jews really wouldn't have anywhere to call home, except maybe in parts of America, where they aren't despised and irrationally hated."

I agree, y2k--France, 3rd-most Jews after US and Israel, is the scene of absolutely horrific displays of Antisemitism and violence towards wholly-innocent Jews...

People who say Jews can just be at home in a state that isn't their own, and not have to ever fear reprisals--we've heard THAT before.

And seen and felt the reprisals anyway when they came. They always come.

the anti-semitism charge ignores how the Israel government itself is run by racist and prejudiced right wing extremists who seek a pure Jewish state and have nothing but contempt for Arabs. If anything the lessons of Jewish history should warn the Israeli people against such extremism in their own government, but they're too wrapped up in a victim complex of their own to see it. Israel is backed by the world's greatest superpowers, is fighting a militant group capable only of firing poor quality model rockets, and is not at threat to be exterminated by anyone anytime soon.

"No, they DON'T always know when civilians are there..."

This is bullshit. You yourself have repeatedly made excuses for Israel's use of heavy ordnance in high density areas. Israel knows that any bombing in the Gaza is going to result in civilian causalities in one form or another and does it anyway.

"this is unfounded, unsourced, pure distilled bullshit of the highest grade"

I gave a source, CNN's reporting...so you can take it up with their guy on the ground.

OR you can wait for an independent commission before rushing to judgment...

Or is biased judgment to support a predisposition towards a political cause worth more to you than an unbiased pursuit of the empirical truth?

Guilty until proven innocent? I think not. Not in civilized society, and not on the world stage.

"You yourself have repeatedly made excuses for Israel's use of heavy ordnance in high density areas. Israel knows that any bombing in the Gaza is going to result in civilian causalities in one form or another and does it anyway."

Yes, but as they don't have X-Ray vision, they don't always know what homes the people are in, or if a home is populated or not...

And you have yet to attribute any responsibility for those attacks to Hamas and its use of human shields--in fact, you have yet to even acknowledge my sourced and cited quotations and video on that subject, wherein Hamas representatives themselves not only admit to using it this month, but condone and celebrate it.

It's THEIR fault civilians are in harms way...and they've broken the United Nations' good will at least TWICE now by storing rockets in UN, neutral, safe zone facilities.

But you never never NEVER recognize Hamas' wrongs as wrongs.

If I'm biased for Israel, you Chairman, are irrevocably and irredeemably biased towards Hamas...

So really, at this point NEITHER of us should be the people debating this--it's time for the middle ground to take over (as it should in real life.)

You can't just say "CNN reported" without giving some short of evidence of such.

And I highly doubt there's going to be an independent commission. Even if there is Israel will deny is legitimacy, as it has with a number of different international commissions, and sweep the whole thing under the rug.

It's more of a case of applying occam's razor and seeing the reality of the situation. Israel had precise coordinates of the UN school. Israel has shelled UN schools before. The high casualty rate points to an ordnance beyond the capability of Hamas. You're playing into the hands of IDF damage control hook, line, and sinker.

"Israel is backed by the world's greatest superpowers, is fighting a militant group capable only of firing poor quality model rockets, and is not at threat to be exterminated by anyone anytime soon."

That itself is patently untrue, as Hamas is openly sponsored and armed by Iran and Qatar, both regional powers, and Iran getting closer to being a nuclear power.

And both Hamas and Israel have admitted to Hamas' military capabilities having a sharp rise this time...so no, this isn't a band of disorganized, poorly-armed rebels...

And that's certainly not what they see themselves as being.

"You can't just say "CNN reported" without giving some short of evidence of such."

I don't know how to capture video from my TV and create a link for you...what would you like me to do, it's on CNN...

I'm biased for Hamas in the way I am biased for an oppressed people against their oppressors. You make excuses for the wanton murder of civilians with every post. Hamas does terrible things I do not condone, but they are largely left with zero options in their case. They're packed into an open air refugee camp, one of the highest density cities in the world, civilians are going to get in the way no matter what they do or where they go. This doesn't excuse Israel's wanton murder, nor are all of Israel's attacks against Hamas targets specifically. Israel has all the options available to it. They are in the dominant position. Yet there is consistent and continued evidence that Israel's campaign is one of collective punishment against Hamas and Palestinians as a whole, not just a military campaign to destroy Hamas' capabilities.

"It's more of a case of applying occam's razor and seeing the reality of the situation. Israel had precise coordinates of the UN school. Israel has shelled UN schools before. The high casualty rate points to an ordnance beyond the capability of Hamas."

Occam's Razor can cut the other way as well--

Hamas was firing near the school, and was near the school that day,
Their rockets were thus closer,
Their rockets HAVE caused considerable damage before (see the picture of the destroyed home near Tel Aviv airport),
Hamas rockets are not accurate and can be blown off-course, while Israel's are far more targeted.

All those facts warrant Hamas being worthy of consideration...you exclude them because you are 100% biased for them and against Israel.

You arrive at your conclusion before the evidence--Sherlock Holmes you are not.

"I don't know how to capture video from my TV and create a link for you...what would you like me to do, it's on CNN..."

If it's news, it will be reported outside of television. The fact that you have to go to CNN live coverage, some of the most biased and ridiculously tone-deaf news coverage in America, for evidence is straining in and of itself.

"Hamas was firing near the school, and was near the school that day,
Their rockets were thus closer,
Their rockets HAVE caused considerable damage before (see the picture of the destroyed home near Tel Aviv airport),
Hamas rockets are not accurate and can be blown off-course, while Israel's are far more targeted.

All those facts warrant Hamas being worthy of consideration...you exclude them because you are 100% biased for them and against Israel.
"

You're ignoring the repeated, successive rocket hits, something that would not happen if they were stray shells caught in the wind, and the high casualty rate which is not consistent with Hamas rocketry. Even when rockets have hit civilian areas in Israel, the death toll has amounted to one or two tops. Israel has also fired on UN schools before, while Hamas is apparently using them for shelter. Why would Hamas fire on its own positions?

"I'm biased for Hamas in the way I am biased for an oppressed people against their oppressors."

Grow up.

Sorry, that may work for Star Wars, but in the real world, there is very, very, VERY rarely a case of a plucky, innocent Rebel Alliance and an Evil Galactic Empire...

And the Muslim Brotherhood-backed Hamas, with their policy of killing any Israeli, be he 6 months old or 60, sure as hell aren't falling into that.

This isn't "oppressors vs. oppressed," this is many factions vs. many factions, and frankly, it's laughable and pitiful for you to characterize this so blithely and childishly.

The world is not so black and white as that, and frankly, your inability to see it as anything BUT black and white contributes to the banality of your pro-Hamas position.

Tell me, if I start a group that vows the extermination of all Latinos, fire rockets at Latinos, and I get attacked for it, is my band of criminals suddenly a plucky little band of rebels, too?

http://www.haaretz.com/1.606888?v=7EEFD42D6A84D602E522002EAA272F02

Too true. Anyone who claims Israel is completely in the right or completely in the wrong just doesn't get it.

"You're ignoring the repeated, successive rocket hits, something that would not happen if they were stray shells caught in the wind, and the high casualty rate which is not consistent with Hamas rocketry."

1. As Hamas fires rockets in succession from similar sites, yes, it could be several Hamas rockets or even--gasp!--BOTH sides hitting the damn place...but no...we must always blame one side, because blame is always more important than facts.

2. Do you not think Hamas rockets hurt, or do damage? They have destroyed entire homes...you don't think they could therefore destroy a home-like school structure? Of course not...Hamas rockets are only peaceful, harmless "protest" rockets...not like the big bad Israeli missiles...

Because Rebel Alliance vs. Empire, little guy vs. big guy, REGARDLESS of motives or extenuating circumstances. You really do reduce this to Star Wars-level of simplicity at every turn...and I see you've yet to care at all about France's millions of Jews now in jeopardy from pro-Palestinian mobs and violence.

But that doesn't fit into your narrative, and you're ALL about a narrative...and that level of murkiness and complexity doesn't fit into your black and white narrative.

Anyway, I've got to get back to work--thanks for a fun lunch break, I'll check back to see what other over-simplified tripe you've posted later (maybe by then we'll have moved on to actually flat-out calling Hamas Leadership Han, Luke, and Leia! ...Well, no, Leia would be forced to keep quiet and stay out of a leadership position, but who cares about the sexual inequality Hamas promotes, while Israel has more gender equality by comparison in THEIR political structure...Hamas is the little guy, ergo, they MUST be the good guys! Logic ho!)

"Too true. Anyone who claims Israel is completely in the right or completely in the wrong just doesn't get it."

I agree...Israel isn't completely in the right...I just think they're "less wrong" than Hamas (on the other hand, Israel seriously needs to knock it off in the West Bank...they should be ashamed of those settlements.)

""I'm biased for Hamas in the way I am biased for an oppressed people against their oppressors."

Grow up.

Sorry, that may work for Star Wars, but in the real world, there is very, very, VERY rarely a case of a plucky, innocent Rebel Alliance and an Evil Galactic Empire..."

Uhh what? Resistance against oppressive regimes is a real thing in real life. Consider the ANC in South Africa, which was seen as a terrorist group at the time, but went on to be renowned for fighting against an apartheid state (a situation very closely mirroring Israel today).

How you see Palestinians, who are routinely abandoned by their fellow Arab countries, as not oppressed by Israel is a huge mystery. This isn't about black and white, this is about power crushing those without it. You are opposed to the settlements in the West bank, what do you call that? People just naturally moving into new homes? It's oppression of the highest grade.

And your example doesn't make sense because the Latinos are not actively suppressing you in any way. If they committed violence against you for decades you would certainly be justified in committing violence back.