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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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cteno4 (100 D)
11 Mar 12 UTC
Springing Forward
Daylight Savings Time starts tonight for most of us in the United States, Canada, and several Caribbean island nations. This isn't the same date as for most other participating countries; consequently, this meant we all had to change our time zones manually when I last was on this site a few years ago.

Remember to Spring Forward if it applies to you, and remember to double-check your clocks on the webDiplomacy website after you do it.
2 replies
Open
Diplomat33 (243 D(B))
10 Mar 12 UTC
Patton vs Lee
An interesting contest. Which General was better does the community think? Overall, for they both had their specifics where they would win.
7 replies
Open
nnfolz (100 D)
10 Mar 12 UTC
My apologies to the players of "two?" gameID=82846
I'm writing to apologize to the players of game "two?" (http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=82846) for abandoning the game. An emergency came up and I had to leave. I understand me leaving threw the game off balance for everyone and for that I am sorry. I hope I get a chance to play you guys again in the future.

Sincerely,
-nnfolz (Germany)
0 replies
Open
Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
03 Mar 12 UTC
United Auto Workers bailed out by Obama
Why did Americans who don't work at General Motors, about 99.9% of the population, waste hundreds of billions bailing out GM? Obama's dependence on union money of course. Our reward
Production of the Chevy Volt halted and 1,300 jobs lost.
8 replies
Open
Pete U (293 D)
09 Mar 12 UTC
I have some points to lose
So, who fancies a games - 48hrs,anon, WTA
14 replies
Open
dD_ShockTrooper (1199 D)
10 Mar 12 UTC
Proof that 9/11 was an inside job!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK-Mt7gr2EQ&feature=player_embedded
13 replies
Open
Agent K (0 DX)
10 Mar 12 UTC
Schwarz Criterion
Can someone explain the significance of the sign?
0 replies
Open
ulytau (541 D)
08 Mar 12 UTC
Random Person to Post Wins
We all know that the concept of "Last Person to Post Wins" is deeply flawed – it encourages excessive posting which is similar to bidding wars; only except of money, one constantly invests his free time to stay on top which favours the trolls the most, since they have no life and therefore plenty of free time. Random Person to Post Wins alleviates the situation of those who wish to win but can't bother trying. Enjoy.
17 replies
Open
mapleleaf (0 DX)
10 Mar 12 UTC
Hitler finds out that the Toronto Maple Leafs miss the playoffs.......again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N86N4pfEx0Q
5 replies
Open
steephie22 (182 D(S))
09 Mar 12 UTC
free way to play diplomacy with bots?
any?
16 replies
Open
willbaude (1168 D)
09 Mar 12 UTC
Looking for a replacement England
England just left a surprisingly solid position in this game: http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=81140

It's Autumn retreats, so England will have two builds and a total of six units before there's any new action.
2 replies
Open
LakersFan (899 D)
10 Mar 12 UTC
EoG WTA 2
Live game from earlier today gameID=82759
2 replies
Open
bolshoi (0 DX)
10 Mar 12 UTC
negative vote count
does anybody believe that negative vote counts on the machines are error and not fraud? also here is a video on how incredibly secure the machines are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwS4XMEr_qY&feature=player_embedded
1 reply
Open
erist (228 D(B))
09 Mar 12 UTC
What is the point of cheating?
Someone please explain to me how cheating on an anonymous internet site in a game against people you don't know without the possibility of monetary reward makes any sense?
9 replies
Open
Gobbledydook (1389 D(B))
08 Mar 12 UTC
I have disgraceful stats.
Can I somehow reset them? They look bad.
19 replies
Open
Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
16 Feb 12 UTC
Government "aid" to the poor, a success or disaster?
Socialists, statists, liberals and the like consistently, constantly, and incessantly claim that government administered aid is the "only" solution for poverty and uplifting the poor. Where is the real evidence of this success? The youth riots in Britain provide evidence of its failure.
23 replies
Open
taylor4 (261 D)
07 Mar 12 UTC
Higgs boson
It is March and news from TEVATRON data is coming out. March 6/7.
3 replies
Open
rayNimagi (375 D)
05 Mar 12 UTC
America's Deficit and Budget Cuts
I haven't been on Webdiplo in about 6 months, but I thought this would be a good place to ask the question:

What can we do to stop the growing problem of federal debt in America? What can be cut?
100 replies
Open
Geofram (130 D(B))
03 Mar 12 UTC
Magic: The Gathering
Not that any of you live close enough to play IRL, but does anyone still play competitively? I recently got sucked back in and have been play testing decks on the MWS software all night. If anyone wants to join in, I can post a link to my installation. Just download and skype me.
67 replies
Open
LakersFan (899 D)
08 Mar 12 UTC
NMR/CD First Year Automatic Cancelling
Has anyone considered adding this option? It makes sense that if someone misses both of their first year's moves, that the game is imbalanced. Would allowing a setting to cancel the game if someone goes CD by the end of the first year be feasible?
50 replies
Open
Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
27 Jan 12 UTC
Income Inequality
How can someone like me have money? My parents divorced and I grew up in poverty in a one-parent family. I'm obviously not bright. I only achieved a BA using benefits I earned serving in the US Army? How come a brilliant lad like Thucy doesn't have money and I do?
67 replies
Open
dr. octagonapus (210 D)
04 Mar 12 UTC
Rich World Diplomacy
planning a 50 pot world game
1 day phaze, starts on friday
if interested gameID=82356
6 replies
Open
Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
19 Jan 12 UTC
Government should regulate WebDip's Website
Following the logic that braindead socialists post on this site all the time about how government knows best then lets put their insane ideas to the test.
If government can run my health care better than I can then surely government could run Webdip better with one hand behind its back than the mods do.
51 replies
Open
Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
27 Jan 12 UTC
A tax policy scenario.
This thread assumes that the economy is not a zero-sum system, but instead assumes that the economy is a dynamic system capable of real growth.
Thus any assumed increase in wealth results from the output of productive activity, and does not diminish the wealth of anyone else at all.
78 replies
Open
Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
02 Feb 12 UTC
Why can't Unions survive on their own?
Mitch Daniels signed right to work legislation and union workers protested.
We've had unions in this nation for well over a century.
We've seen the "workers" of the state run a government in the Soviet Union.
With all this historical evidence why can't unions survive without coercion?
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MajorMitchell (1874 D)
19 Feb 12 UTC

just tryin' to keep the customers satisfied

TC what is a "union company" ?

may iI suggest that a basic division of companies could be
1 there are companies that are strongly anti union
2 companies that are "union nuetral"
3 companies that are "union positive" ( ie willing to work with unions to create
the "win-win" outcomes )

I think you could find examples of all three "categories" of company that
have varying degrees of success and failure

I would dispute an "axiomatic" assertion that only the "anti union" companies will
have the greatest success and it's antithesis assertion.

For example, in Australia there is a huge trucking company, very proftable, built up
from a single truck by Mr Lindsay Fox, the company is "Linfox".
Lindsay Fox has operated from the start with a willingness to deal positively with
transport unions.

As another example of Linfox being progressive is it's determination to get to a
"carbon dioxide emission" nuetral, even positive outcome as soon as possible.
Lindsay Fox is not waiting for regulation / legislation to force his company to do
something about it's "greenhouse gas emissions"

I saw him being interviewed on this, and he is one smart operator.
Yes it cost him money up front, and he employed 80 extra staff to implement his
policy, but now he saves more money in reduced fuel costs ( a lot more money )
than it does to effect the changes, so he has made a challenge that other capitalists
are avoiding / incapable of dealing with, turn into a very positive profit helping outcome.

He has done it by investing in new trucks at great expense so his truck fleet is
composed of the most modern, fuel efficient trucks available, by investing in
"high tech" fleet control systems, by investing in Driver training.
Linfox also invests in carbon offset operations, tree plantations etc,
but he has said publicly that the biggest reduction in his truck emmissions
( per kilometre tonne of freight moved ) has come from investing in
1 Driver training & Driver performance incentives
2 Investment in keeping his truck fleet as modern and as efficient as possible
3 Investment in high tech truck and fleet management systems

with offset programs being an "add on"

He also stated publicly that he saw this policy as essential to keeping and gaining
international freight contracts into the future

I had an uncle Ian, who was in the RAAF during WW2. he started up a tooling
engineering company in the 1950's and was very successful
He made his employees shareholders, to keep them long term employees,
so as a worker stayed over the years he had an increasing shareholding in the
company.
Ian also used to include his employees in the "business" side of things,
by having meeting to discuss the "overall business plan" for each year,
(at a crude level of description by me ) discussing contracts,
turnover and profit targets for their existing and new contracts, and for
profits exceeding those targets, an "excess" profit sharing arrangement would
be worked out for the various contracts, and that is how he paid his people annual
bonus payments as a reward for loyalty, combined effort & productivity gains.

workers could join a union, no problem, but by providing better salary and conditions
and safety, than unions could achieve for workers at other engineering companies,
he never had problems with the unions and could still out compete those other
companies for contracts because he had productivity and quality advantages.

The union chaps would turn up at Ians company, He treated them politely, and
the union chaps would see what was going on and say "we don't need to have a fight
over wages, conditions, safety etc, you are doing the right thing by your workers,
good luck & see you again in a few months" (They also knew that Ian's workers
would never support any nonsense claims )

The other thing Ian did was invest in technology to get and keep productivity
and quality advantages, so rather than buy a luxury boat or Rolls Royce he would
buy a new 'state of the art" machine & often his company, although (relatively ) small
would be the first company in Australia to have the latest new "gizmo"

I can remember visiting Ian at his work and he would point to a monstrous pile
of paper and documents, and say, "oh that's the stuff for a major contract from
the US, India, England, etc, it was sent to us, ( ie he had not shown any interest or
requested the tender details ) but we have to look after our existing customers,
and I am too busy to spend time reading all that, so I don't think we will tender on
that job" and then start talking about some new machine and a project that he was
interested in going for.

A funny story about Ian, after the war he went to a Billy Graham religeous thing and
changed, stopped drinking etc became active in the church etc

In the 1970's he went to Thailand for business, had a series of meetings one day,
then went back to his hotel. There is a knock on the door, he opens it and there is a
good looking woman sent to "entertain" him by the Thai business men to help
"get him on board with them"
Ian realises after a bit of conversation what is going on and it is against his moral
and religeous beliefs so he sends the woman away.
An hour later there is another knock on the door and there is an even more beautiful
woman, same deal.
Ian sends her away.
A third, even more beautiful woman turns up, same thing & Ian sends her away
as well.
The Thai business men had thought Ian had refused the first two because
"they were not good enough"

There is also a fantastic srory about how Ian got two machines for the price of one.

He bought a new machine, cost about $Aus 500,000- from Japan
( once again it is the first of it's type to be bought into Australia )
He had to buy an adjoining property to his factory, build a massive new shed etc
to set the new machine up, the machine turns up, is installed they start some test runs
and it fails.
Consultations with the makers of the machine, they send a team out to "fix it",
they are very concerned as they are trying to sell more of these machines to other
tooling engineering firms in Australia, and those firms are taking a " let's see how
Ian's machine works first bfore we commit" stance

They think they have it fixed & it fails ( a couple of times )
Then the Japanese, very apologetic announce they are shipping a replacement
machine from Japan.
It takes a few months to get the new machine to Ian, during the delay Ian and his
engineers work put the problem, come up with a solutuion, make improved parts
to fit their "re design" of the problem section.
They sort out the machine and get it working, but say nothing.
New machine arrives, is installed, and has the same problems, the Japanese
engineers are most embarresed ( big loss of face )

Ian announces that he and his staff have sorted out the problem,
re designed part of the machine, and made it work "better than expected"

"Oh, may we look at what you have done ? "
Ian showed them the solution, new designs etc, the machine working and offers the Japanese his designs for free as they have been really helpful to him in the past &
he wants "goodwill" for the future.

The Japanese consult "head office" then announce they are giving Ian both machines,
there will be no extra charges ( he has only paid for the first machine ).
Ian gets "favoured" customer status, so after that any new "gizmo" they make,
if Ian wants one he will get it at a price advantage,
and before other tooling engineering firms in Australia if there are "competing"
orders and a limited supply.

Like I have said before,
I think Capitalism is the greatest system for Humans to use to create wealth.
To ensure that the wealth created is distributed with some equity, to ensure that
unscrupulous, greedy people "dont "f**** it up" for everyone else, to ensure that
communities share the benefits, to ensure that economic growth is sustainable
and responsibly managed you have to take on the challenges of creating
sophisticated well regulated markets that reward smart, ethical private enterprise.

Simplistic "get rid of all regulation, government intervention and unions"
ideological propoganda is a seductive fallacy, and treats our collective intellectual
abilities with contempt
Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
19 Feb 12 UTC
Wall Street poses substantially less of a threat to the average American than the tax liabilities created by public sector unions corrupting state politicians all over the country. Private businesses envies the total capture of state government enjoyed by public sector unions.

Here is a timely article from Obama's own home state, Illinois.
Of course union advocates say that all Americans deserve pensions of the level of public employees.
Of course those same clueless fools ignore completely the fact that America can't afford it for even the existing public union employees unless state governments instituted tax enslavement of the non-union public.
No doubt brain dead union advocates then tax enslavement of non-union citizens is optimum. Of course democracy gets in the way of such stupendous greed and stupidity.

See Indiana's passage of right to work legislation right in the supposed union rust belt.
American's recognize that unions aren't the future, they are a poison pill from the past.

By JENNIFER HALPERIN
Pension deficit haunts future
State government is the biggest employer
in Illinois; but the state is
years behind in funding its pension system

It's not unusual to see lawmakers toting their offspring around the state Capitol complex when the General Assembly is in session. Just about every kid enjoys seeing where his or her parents work. But Sen. Steven J. Rauschenberger (R-33, Elgin) had a point to make when he brought his 10-year-old son Michael to Springfield during the spring legislative session and introduced him around to some colleagues.

At the time, the freshman senator was trying to help push through a plan that would have firmly set Illinois on the long road toward fully funding its five pension systems; the state now has promised nearly $13 billion more in future pension benefits than it has put in the bank � including expected interest earnings � to pay those benefits. The plan Rauschenberger advocated would have required the legislature to set aside millions of dollars annually for the next 47 years so that eventually the state's assets catch up with its obligations.

"I took Michael around to meet people, and as I did I said, 'He's going to be 57 years old before the state finishes paying off the pension liabilities we've promised if we adopt this [47-year system]," Rauschenberger said.


Pensions generally haven't been considered the sexiest of issues; they don't capture the public's immediate attention in the same way debate over topics such as gambling and abortion does. But Illinois' pension system problems have become a talking point for politicians in both major political parties. "What this is basically is $12.9 billion in long-term debt," said Sen. Peter Fitzgerald (R-27, Inverness), the chief sponsor of the Senate pension funding package.
Said Rauschenberger: "We're talking about the spending of the entire state of Illinois for five solid months. We're not talking about hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars."

This huge deficit for the state was built up for many reasons. Not only have current and past legislatures and governors failed to fund the pension systems as needed; they have approved pension "sweeteners" such as improved medical benefits and higher salaries that have driven up the state's unfunded liability, critics say. The Illinois Constitution guarantees current and promised future pensions will be paid; the pressing question is: Where will the money come from to do so?

"We're talking about a tremendous amount of money � money that my son's son is going to have to pay. What we're doing is very, very unfair," Rauschenberger said. Such admonishments have become familiar refrains around the Capitol. In part, they are due to national surveys that rank Illinois among those states with the largest pension funding gaps. But the issue also has reaped attention through vocal pleadings from some unlikely "partners." This meeting of the minds personifies the cliche that "politics make strange bedfellows." It demonstrates that harsh economic problems can unite even those with

July 1993/Illinois Issues/17

divergent philosophical views.

For example, the cries of doom issued regularly by veteran Illinois politico, law professor and long-time pension funding critic Dawn Clark Netsch, the state's socially liberal female comptroller, have been taken up by a band of five male freshman Republican senators, which includes Fitzgerald, Rauschenberger, Chris Lauzen (R-21, Aurora), Patrick O'Malley (R-18, Palos Park) and Dave Syverson (R-34, Rockford). "Both parties are nervous about it," said Fitzgerald. "Anybody who cares about the long term at all is going to have a problem with it."

As a state senator in 1989, Netsch sponsored what became Public Act 86-273, which called for a pension funding schedule with a 40-year amortization to be phased in during the subsequent seven years. "We would have been relatively home free on that schedule," Netsch said. But it never was funded. Similar to the way in which our federal government can't seem to abide by laws intended to force them to pass a balanced budget or have spending cut automatically, the Illinois legislature has found a way to circumvent its own law.

This year, the Republican Senate pension package would have renewed PA 86-273's intentions and set in place a funding mechanism. But without a funding source, it didn't have much of a chance. Instead, lawmakers passed a resolution forming a task force to study long-term planning for pensions sytems, including funding practices and benefit levels.

As bad as the situation is and has been for years for state pensions, public officials have engaged in some unabashedly risky game-playing with pension funds, critics charge. "These games have been going on a long, long time," said Fitzgerald. "I can tell you the previous [gubernatorial] administration started the big games, but they've been going on for ages and ages."

One problem, say critics, are early-retirement offerings and their accompanying payouts. While these plans may look like they save money in the immediate future through salary savings, it's important to remember that they add to pension debt. For example, the General Assembly and governor approved an early retirement incentive program for state workers in fiscal year 1992, of which 4,608 employees took advantage. The move saved the state nearly $36 million in salaries, but it placed an extra $231.4 million liability on the pension fund.
"Early retirement has a devastating effect on the pension situation," Netsch said. "It has a dramatic effect on our financial integrity, and none of that is taken into account." What's more, criticism has been leveled over what are known as "revolving door" contracts, which involve employees retiring or taking advantage of early retirement only to turn around and obtain state contracts for the same work. Following the fiscal year 1992 early retirement offering, the St. Louis Post-Dispatch found that more than 50 of those retiring turned around and signed state contracts worth more than one-half million dollars.

The much-publicized "five plus five" plan signed into law earlier this year offered early retirement to downstate and suburban teachers and state police. Under the plan, pensions are figured as if retiring employees are five years older with five more years of service than they actually have accumulated.

The "five plus five" issue struck Rauschenberger as particularly frustrating. "It didn't appear as though much weight or thought or analysis went into the costs of this plan. When we set the stage for wonderful early retirement, other groups [of public employees] want them," Rauschenberger said. "It's like a ripple effect. As soon as one group gets one leg up, the others want to level the playing field.

"We've already forced these problems onto the next two generations if you define a generation by 30 years," he added. "We're finally focusing this year on it, but up until now we've been totally out of line with what the rest of the world does. General Motors, Caterpillar � they all see that pension sweeteners [such as continued medical insurance coverage with no retiree contribution] may end the company. If we were a private company, our attorneys may counsel dissolution of the company and coming to a settlement with retirees."

As employees take advantage of early retirement plans like "five plus five," the state must pay them for accumulated unused sick days and vacation. State workers can amass up to 12 sick days a year for their entire career. When they quit or are fired, the state pays them for half of the unused

18/July 1993/Illinois Issues

days and adds the other half of that cash value to their pensions. And unused vacation days can be cashed in when they leave. So, for example, when 46-year-old Ronald H. Grimming, deputy director of the Illinois State Police, took advantage of "five plus five" to leave his $73,000-a-year post earlier this year, he collected a lump sum of $33,030.56, according to the comptroller's office. What's more, he then took a $77,250-a-year job with the Florida Highway Patrol.

"When we were playing games in the '80s, the stock market was so up it almost made up for underfunding," said Fitzgerald in reference to high interest yields the pension systems were getting from their investments. One habit consistently pointed out as devastating to the pension funds began in 1982, when the state stopped contributing enough money to the funds to cover checks going out in the same year. The stock market was doing well, so pension funds' investment income was up. In response, former Gov. James R. Thompson reduced state contributions to less than two-thirds of the 1982 payout to retirees. That practice was supposed to be limited to one year but was not.
"I've made the observation that if the state had been able or willing to fund the pensions more expansively in the early '80s, our asset-to-liability ratio would have been much bigger now," said James D. Nowlan, president of the Taxpayers' Federation of Illinois. "The state did not take advantage of that � but of course that's hindsight."

Investments are decided by the retirement systems' boards of trustees, whose members are named in a variety of ways. Some are appointed by the governor, some represent other top state officials such as the comptroller's office or the governor's Bureau of the Budget, and others represent system members. "I've never heard it said or even suggested that the investments are not good," said Netsch. "That's what sustained us a lot of those years because the returns were so high." Fitzgerald agreed. "The problem is not the boards, whose responsibility is to invest. The problem is the legislators' and governor's propensity to not say 'no' to pension sweeteners."

When the high investment returns of the '80s dropped, the state retirement systems were left without the cushion those returns had provided. Further aggravating the situation is the sweetening of pension deals for future retirees without money set aside to pay for them. Some examples were outlined in the state's Comprehensive Annual Financial Report for 1991. During that fiscal year, lawmakers increased pension benefit obligations for the State Employees' Retirement System (SERS), which covers most state employees not eligible for another state-sponsored plan. They added 3 percent annual increases for disability benefits and accidental death annuities. That year lawmakers also hiked the obligation for the State Universities' Retirement System (SURS), approving a new 3 percent post-retirement benefit.

Moreover, the state has picked up portions of employee contributions to pension plans when it can not afford to give raises but without setting aside the additional money to pay those contributions. For example, until January 1, 1992, most state employees contributed 4 percent of their pay toward their pensions. But after that date, the state began making the contributions in lieu of raises. "Now virtually the entire onus for funding the State Employees' Retirement System is placed on the state budget," states the fiscal year 1994 report on pension funding requirements prepared by the Illinois Economic and Fiscal Commission. "Why would we rather pick up the 4 percent contribution for state workers?" Fitzgerald said. "Because it costs us nothing. In essence we're just borrowing from the future."

The fact that Illinois is nearly $13 billion behind in pension funding means this: If the state was to shut down, the money it has set aside for all retirement benefits would pay only 57.1 percent � or 57.1 cents for every dollar owed � even figuring in the interest that would have accrued on the state's pension investments.

"There is some disagreement of an essential level of funding for pensions," said Netsch. "But no one believes 57 percent is even close to adequate. Eighty-five percent is considered probably secure enough. But people wouldn't dream of 57 percent."

"Actually, a system is healthy if it is fully funded � 100 percent," said Ronald D. Picur, former comptroller of the city of Chicago and now associate professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago, where he is acting head of the accounting department. "Obviously, the farther you get away from [a fully-funded system], the more you're pushing off onto the future."

Picur said the best way to assess Illinois' standing is to look at the state's individual pension systems and the percentage of which each has been funded over several years. For instance, SERS was funded at 69 percent in fiscal year 1989 and 59 percent in fiscal year 1992, according to the Illinois Economic and Fiscal Commission. Similarly, the other four systems saw their funding percentages drop during the same time period. Those systems include: the Teachers' Retirement System (TRS), covering teachers employed by public school districts in Illinois except those in Chicago; SURS, covering faculty and staff of state universities, community colleges and related higher education agencies; the Judges' Retirement System (JRS), covering judges and associate judges of the Illinois courts; and the General Assembly Retirement System (GARS), covering members of the General Assembly and certain state officials, including the governor.

"Uniformly and consistently, the trend is moving in the wrong direction," said Picur. "That, to my mind, is a warning signal; it's a red flag." Even the federal Social Security system, which is the subject of its own share of hand-wringing, is funded in a more actuarially sound way, he said.

But everyone from Picur to Netsch to the state's auditor general's office is quick to point out that despite these ominous numbers, every state employee is going to get every penny they're owed. Currently, more than 98,000 people are receiving benefits from the five retirement systems.

"We're all going to get our pension benefits," Netsch What's more, a "non-diminishment clause" forbids lawmakers from lessening the benefits. "We're constitutionally precluded from changing it," said Rauschenberger. "We can't undo others' good intentions. We've made a lot of policy decisions we're going to come to regret." And it's unlikely a constitutional amendment changing these policies would get much support, he said, because of a "terribly involved constituency" of former and current state employees. On the contrary, he said, these constituents are constantly putting pressure on legislators to sweeten benefits. "When we address pension issues, there are a quarter of a million [future] beneficiaries we're talking about."

Netsch agreed: "We're talking about the retirement rights of hundreds of thousands of people. They made a deal with their employers, and the state has at least made an implied promise that they'd be funded."

Some factors affect the state's pension obligation no matter what state officials do, such as a change in predictions of how long retirees are expected to live and thus collect benefits. For example, at TRS, a change in post-retirement mortality actuarial assumptions in fiscal year 1991 increased the pension benefit obligation by $214,173, according to the state's Comprehensive Annual Report from that year.

But are things on their way to getting any better in the areas that legislators can control? "There have been several bills killed in both the House and Senate this year that would've sweetened pensions for state employees," said Fitzgerald. "In part I think that's because of the revived focus on pension problems. Every year for years there have been big, sweet pension sweeteners. Nobody really lobbies against that stuff because the cost isn't apparent right away."

"There's been no formal pledge to keep all pension sweeteners out," said Mark Gordon, spokesman for Senate President James "Pate" Philip (R-23, Wood Dale). "Early in the session Pate was trying to work with the speaker toward a pledge to put a freeze on pension changes, but it never got done. It wasn't the speaker's fault; it just never happened. This is a recognition that there's no money for this." Steve Brown, spokesman for House Speaker Michael J. Madigan (D-22, Chicago), agreed. Philip and Madigan cosponsored the resolution creating the pension task force this session. "This isn't just a lot of talk because we talked to Pate and the governor's office, and they're frankly pretty nervous," said Fitzgerald.

But nervousness doesn't provide money where there is none, he acknowledges. "I think in some sense having a continuing [source of money that would go toward filling pension obligation] is a good idea, but we'll have to have a funding source for it," he said. Fitzgerald said it would be wise for the new pension task force to play a "legislative watchdog" role, analyzing the full future effect of bills calling for pension sweeteners, early retirement offers and general funding for the systems.

Establishment of an income tax on pension benefits has been mentioned as one possible solution to the mounting pension debt. "Almost every state with an income tax imposes the tax on pension income, which Illinois doesn't," said Ron Snell, who analyzes pension issues for the Denver-based National Conference on State Legislatures. "What you're doing is not real common."

"Most pensioneers don't realize they're not paying income tax on them," Fitzgerald said. "[Such a tax] could net $150 million a year depending on how widely it was applied." California is so squeezed for revenue that it is trying to impose its state income tax on state pension benefits paid to retirees now living outside of California. The rationale in pursuing that tax is that contributions to state pension plans were not subjected to the tax, so the state now should be allowed to collect income tax on benefits.

Other suggestions include offering lower benefits for new employees, which would amount to a "two-tier system," or hiking employee contributions to the plan from current levels. And some advocate changing to what's known as a defined contribution plan instead of the defined benefit plan now in place. In defined contribution plans, known as 401k's, an employee can choose to put a small portion of his paycheck into a retirement account. The employer may make periodic matching contributions, but the employee decides how to invest the money. Under a defined benefit plan, the employer promises to pay a certain amount to retired employees each month based on such factors as length of service and salary at the time of retirement.

The spring 1993 legislative session turned out not to be the time for dramatic action on funding pension obligations. But is such action truly on its way in the near future? "If we don't do anything soon, years down the line it could mean several more points of income tax dedicated just to pension funds," Fitzgerald said.

But like the looming federal deficits that continues to hang over the country, the pension issue lacks immediate consequences � which usually are needed to spur elected officials into action. "It's easy to see why this appeals to budget-writers," said Marjorie Shea, legislative chair of the Illinois Retired Teachers Association. "The politicians now in office will be off collecting their own retirement benefits by the time this problem surfaces."

"It's not the kind of thing that stands up and bites a politician where they ought to be bitten," Netsch said. "It is a chicken that is going to come home to roost, or you can use any other metaphor you want to make up." Rauschenberger agreed. "I had high hopes in the beginning of this year that we'd begin to address this," he said. "Next year it will be harder because we'll be that much closer to major elections."

Of course, relatively minimal service is required of lawmakers for pension eligibility. Even if a legislator is unvoluntarily "retired early" by not winning reelection, he or she needs to have served just four years to be eligible for pension benefits at age 62. For eight years of legislative service, retirement age is 55 with full benefits. �
MajorMitchell (1874 D)
19 Feb 12 UTC

more cut & paste from TC.
not one response to any single question I have posed.
not one well argued rebuttal of any specific assertion I have made.

As an aside today is the 70th anniversary of the Japanese bombing of Darwin
in WW2.
May I express my appreciation of their service to all the families of American service
persons who served in WW2
May I also publicly express my admiration for the Americans serving on the US navy
ship the USS Peary that was sunk in Darwin harbour 70 years ago today
Even though their ship was doomed the gunners kept firing, that example of courage
and self sacrifice has to be respected.
YadHoGrojaUL (330 D)
19 Feb 12 UTC
He had to put in a huge cut & paste so the allegations of onanism get relegated back a page!

Pressing the <return> key a couple of hundred times would have the same effect, and be less tedious...
MajorMitchell (1874 D)
20 Feb 12 UTC

I did read the huge cut & paste
Onanism is a wonderful descriptive word
I have sometimes used it to describe my religeous status
Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
22 Feb 12 UTC
Thomas Sowell lays bare the hypocrisy of Faculty Associations (unions of professors) that don't practice what they preach.
A truly brilliant economist and philosopher.

It is fascinating to see people accusing others of things that they themselves are doing, especially when their own sins are worse.

Academics love to say that businesses are not paying enough to people who work for them. But where in business are there people who are paid absolutely nothing for strenuous work that involves risks to their health?

In academia, that situation is common. It is called college football. How often have you watched a big-time college football game without seeing someone limping off the field or being carried off?

College athletes are not to be paid because this is an "amateur" sport. But football coaches are not only paid, they are often paid higher salaries than the presidents of their own universities. More than a few make more than $1 million a year.

Academics also like to accuse businesses of consumer fraud. There is indeed fraud in business, as in every other aspect of human life — including academia.

When my academic career began, half a century ago, I read up on the academic market and discovered that there was a chronic over-supply of people trained to be historians. There were not nearly enough academic posts available for people who had spent years acquiring Ph.D.s in history, and the few openings that there were for new Ph.D.s paid the kind of salaries you could get for doing work requiring a lot less education.

My own pay as a beginning instructor in economics was not high but it was certainly higher than that for beginning historians.

Now, 50 years later, there is a long feature article in the Feb. 17 issue of The Chronicle of Higher Education on the chronic over-supply of historians. Worse yet, leading university history departments are resisting demands that they keep track of what happens to their students after they get their Ph.D.s — and inform prospective Ph.D.s of what the market is like.

If any business operated this way, selling customers something that was very costly in time and money, and which the sellers knew in advance was almost certain to disappoint their expectations, academics would be bursting with indignation — and demanding full disclosure to the customers, if not criminal prosecutions.

But The Chronicle of Higher Education reports "faculty resistance" to collecting and publishing information on what happens to a university's history Ph.D.s after they leave the ivy-covered walls with high hopes and low prospects.

At a number of big-name universities — Northwestern, Brown and the University of North Carolina's flagship campus at Chapel Hill — at least one-fourth of their 2010 history Ph.D.s are either unemployed or their fate is unknown.

At Brown University, for example, 38 percent of their 2010 Ph.D.s are in that category, compared to only 25 percent who have tenure-track appointments.

For people not familiar with academia, a tenure-track appointment does not mean that the appointee has tenure, but only that the job is one where a tenure decision will have to be made at some point under the "up or out system." At leading universities, far more are put out than move up.

There also are faculty appointments that are strictly for the time being — lecturers, adjunct professors or visiting professors. Half the 2010 Ph.D.s from Duke University and the University of Pennsylvania have these kinds of appointments, which essentially lead nowhere. They are sometimes called "gypsy faculty."

Finally, there are Ph.D.s who are on postdoctoral fellowships, often at the expense of the taxpayers. They are paid to continue on campus, essentially as students, after getting their doctorates. More than one-fourth of the 2010 Ph.D.s from Rutgers, Johns Hopkins and Harvard are in this category.

At least these universities release such statistics. A history professor at Rutgers University who has studied such things says: "If you look at some of the numbers published on department websites, they range from dishonest to incompetent."

But apparently many academics are too busy pursuing moral crusades in society at large to look into such things on their own ivy-covered campuses

Another union that doesn't want accountability and thinks hypocrisy is a fine substitute.
MajorMitchell (1874 D)
22 Feb 12 UTC
Yet again TC you have failed to respond to any single question, any single assertion
that I have made
you have chosen to criticise "blue collar" unions and now the "unions" that
represent academics.

More than once I have raised the example of the Bar associations, the "unions" that
represent Lawyers, enforce a "closed shop" and anachronistic work practices in
the judicial system, and have won salaries and conditions that are excessively
disproportionate to other professionals who work in "law and order / the judiciary"
eg judges, police etc.

you avoid responding again and again.

Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
22 Feb 12 UTC
It's really sad how much unions hate freedom and democracy.

Union Suing to Block Indiana Right-to-Work Law

In Indiana the unions couldn't get their stooges elected, they couldn't intimidate the elected representatives, and their last resort- go to court to overturn the will of the elected government.

People complain about corporate influence in politics. Unions corrupt politics more than corporations and have for a long time. Unions were never restricted before the Citizens United decision while corporations were.

Union spending for Obama, Democrats could top $400 million in 2012 election

Rasmussen polls last year found some disturbing trends for unions.

48% Back GOP Governor in Wisconsin Spat, 38% Side With Unions
39% Say Unions Bad for Business, 31% Say Good
48% See No Further Need for Labor Unions, 30% Disagree

What are these people thinking? If they don't belong to a union they will have to fend for themselves.

It looks like Americans don't mind fending for themselves when the alternative is being forced to give up 3-5% of their paychecks in dues to a union that rewards seniority over ability . Nice choice America!
NikeFlash (140 D)
22 Feb 12 UTC
What evidence is do you have for your accusations against Indiana unions, or were you just making it up?
Octavious (2701 D)
22 Feb 12 UTC
Why can't TC threads survive on their own?
TC has been posting in this forum for what feels like a century.
Many threads here thrive, filled with stimulating and often heated debate.
With such fertile soil, why is it TC threads can only limp on with TC posting regularly to himself?
NikeFlash (140 D)
23 Feb 12 UTC
^Like^
Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
24 Feb 12 UTC
Nike Flash, What is it like to be such a humongous dumb ass that you are unable to copy and paste a headline "Union Suing to Block Indiana Right-to-Work Law" and not be able to find the article. Can you find your ass with two hands behind your back? Even money says no. Have a good life because POOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOF you are gone out of mine.
It's so freeing getting read of dead weight.
NikeFlash (140 D)
24 Feb 12 UTC
Haha. TC calling other people dumb. Lqtm
NikeFlash (140 D)
24 Feb 12 UTC
So TC is making a claim and rather than provide evidence for that claim he tells the people that question the base of it to find the evidence for him. Is this how he always argues?
NikeFlash (140 D)
24 Feb 12 UTC
It also seems rather bizarre to me that TC is only all to willing to provide evidence (however questionable) if he thinks it will strengthen his argument. So in this circumstance one must believe that he does not have any evidence that could be considered valid in any way shape or form. And he failed to even address my question. I was not questioning wether or not the unions were suing, I was asking him to provide evidence of intimidation and bribery. But it is clear he has none and was using the fallacy known as "loaded words".
dubmdell (556 D)
24 Feb 12 UTC
@Oct, I'm also wondering how every member of the community has yet to be muted by TC.
NikeFlash (140 D)
24 Feb 12 UTC
A lot of us have been.
Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
28 Feb 12 UTC
Steve Greenhut at Reason magazine has an excellent article on California Public Sector Unions and their unbridled greed that is destroying the economy of a once state.

California’s pro-union Attorney General Kamala Harris provided an unfair and dishonest title and summary to a pair of pension reform initiatives submitted to her office, thus effectively killing the measures. Last week the unions tried—and almost succeeded—with an even nastier stunt designed to undermine democracy.

In San Diego, unions are fearful of a new pension reform measure referred to by supporters as Comprehensive Pension Reform, or CPR, that has qualified for the June 2012 ballot. Instead of simply gearing up to fight this political battle, the unions petitioned one of those ridiculous commissions that most Californians have never even heard of, the Public Employment Relations Board, which is unfriendly turf for taxpayers. The union said placing the initiative on the ballot amounted to an unfair labor practice, and PERB called for an injunction to stop the election until it could complete its sham proceedings.

In essence, the unions and this unelected board insist that the people of San Diego have no right to vote on pension reform. This is just the latest reminder of the totalitarian ethics of a public-sector union movement that doesn’t care about anything other than protecting its benefits.

“Never in the history of this state ... has there ever been a requirement to meet and confer over a citizens’ initiative placed on the ballot by voter signatures,” wrote city attorney Jan Goldsmith in a toughly worded letter to PERB. Pension reform advocate Carl DeMaio, a councilman and mayoral candidate, criticized PERB's assault on Californians' constitutional rights. Fortunately, a judge agreed with the city, but expect the unions to head back to court if their campaign against CPR fails.

The unions that dominate Sacramento are not about to let any serious reform take place given that real reform—especially in light of frightening new unfunded pension liability numbers—means that the days of millionaires’ pensions (one would need millions in the bank to receive the amounts commonly received by recent California government retirees) eventually have to end. Unions don't mind undermining the public's right to vote. They don't care if our taxes go through the roof and businesses flee the state. They don't care if services are slashed. They want their money.
Even Gov. Jerry Brown’s modest pension reform proposals are going nowhere in a Democratic-controlled Legislature that continues to promote expanded benefits for public employees, including a recently introduced Public Employees Bill of Rights. That leaves few other choices than a continuing gallop toward the brink.

While other liberal states such as Rhode Island are addressing their pension problems, and some Midwestern states such as Wisconsin, Ohio, and Indiana are fighting battles over union power, California does basically nothing. I appreciate the governor’s pension proposals, but he continues to view hefty tax increases as the only real solution to the state’s budget problems. The deficit has shrunk a bit, and Standard & Poor’s pushed up the state’s credit rating a tad, but the fundamentals have not improved here very much.

Where does that leave us?

Economist Allan Meltzer once quipped that “Capitalism without failure is like religion without sin. It doesn’t work.” Americans have been witnessing this axiom on a broad scale, as government efforts to prop up industries, bail out the financial sector, and protect select private businesses from failure have only caused a prolonged financial crisis. Without failure, there is no day of reckoning and no effort by the failed party to make the fundamental changes needed to avert future crisis.

The problem in the public sector is that government never is allowed to fail. There never is a day of reckoning no matter how poorly a government agency may provide its so-called services. Often, the worst agencies are rewarded for their failure by being granted additional public dollars. California governments have continually ramped up pension promises, but governments can’t go out of business, so they just keep piling up the debt.

When there’s no money left, officials play games with the numbers or—as Gov. Brown continues to do—make it their main objective to raise taxes.Since reform can't take place because of union control, some have proposed wider use of the bankruptcy option so municipalities can reorganize their debt. The main critics of the bankruptcy option are the unions. They know that bankruptcy would enable governments to abrogate these unaffordable contracts. The public-employee unions championed a bill, signed into law by Brown in October that makes municipal bankruptcy more cumbersome by forcing localities to get approval for such actions by additional committees.

Some even see the bankruptcy option as something that should be allowed for states. In January 2011 GOP pols Jeb Bush and Newt Gingrich ignited this debate with a Los Angeles Times op-ed titled, “Better Off Bankrupt” that argued that an organized bankruptcy process might help states overcome staggering budget deficits. But other conservatives, concerned about the impact of bankruptcy on bond markets, have been campaigning against this idea. They note that the highly publicized Vallejo bankruptcy ultimately did little to reform that city’s super-sized pensions for public employees.

I’m not advocating for bankruptcy per se, but what happens when all other reform options are taken off the table? What happens when the politics of a state won't allow the reforms necessary to save that state? In other words, what happens when failure is not an option? If the likes of Harris and PERB and the unions continue to get their way, we very well may get to see the answer here in California.
Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
03 Mar 12 UTC
State pensions in the red
Unionized public employee retirement system crisis continues to worsen

New York is the latest state struggling to bail out its overgrown public pension system. Like the retirement programs of other state and local governments nationwide, the Empire State’s program is in the red, and it’s looking for $750 million in loans this year. What’s worrisome is that until just a few years ago, New York pensions were considered adequately funded.

The story repeats itself from coast to coast. Government retirement programs offer overly lavish promises backed by inadequate contributions and a lack of transparency. New York’s gimmick to get through this year is to offer reduced contributions today in exchange for promises of higher payments in the future. The problem with this approach is that the public employers, the state and local governments, are borrowing from the state’s own pension system so they can finance their contributions to the system. It’s nothing more than an accounting trick: No actual money goes in, but pensions still have to be paid out. The result is a pension system with less funding than before.

These programs simply cost too much. Eighty-four percent of state and local employees have access to a defined-benefits plan, compared to just 20 percent in the private sector. That’s bad because the payouts for public employees are about three times higher than what private-sector workers receive. States aren’t going to repair their economies without dealing with this imbalance in a serious way, without the smoke and mirrors.
bolshoi (0 DX)
03 Mar 12 UTC
unrestrained contracting leads unions to naturally form. it leads to monopolies, standard-oil-style, and leads to monopolies, united-auto-workers style. it's just game-theory. you make more money if you monopolize. so the premise that unions can't survive on their own is flawed.
Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
09 Mar 12 UTC
A question that appeared in the Chicago Tribune this summer basically describes the core problem with labor unions.

As a condominium board treasurer for many years, I have watched our labor expense grow over the last decade. The boards I served on really were not concerned about this expense when property values were steadily increasing, but now that the lakefront condominium market values have actually declined, these labor increases are growing more onerous.

While wage growth has been in the 2 to 3 percent level, the costs of labor union-defined benefit plans have caused total wage benefits to increase from 10 to 12 percent per year. Our association-plan contributions were about $210,000 in 2010.



My fear is that, eventually, assessment and mortgage payments will start to make condominiums untenable relative to single-family housing.

What leverage do associations have over unions? We could run our building far cheaper without unions, since this is primarily unskilled labor, but the safest route is to negotiate reasonable benefit increases.



81 replies
Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
09 Mar 12 UTC
The Correlation between Liberty & Prosperity
There is a basic concept that says that with more freedom comes more prosperity, and with less freedom prosperity diminishes.
This thread is dedicated to that ideal.

1 reply
Open
santosh (335 D)
08 Mar 12 UTC
So tell me about Atlanta
I'm joining grad school at Atlanta (GaTech) this Fall. Tell a clueless non-American stuff about Atlanta, people of webdiplomacy. Compared to other places I've been to, like Vancouver and SFO, or of when you or people you know had been there.
17 replies
Open
Iceray0 (266 D(B))
07 Mar 12 UTC
Soooooo
Does anyone remember me?
33 replies
Open
Yonni (136 D(S))
08 Mar 12 UTC
My city's sports teams are worse than your city's sports teams.
So, after the Leafs miss the playoffs and the panthers make it. Toronto will hold the record for active playoff drought in the NHL. We sit 4th in the MLB and 6th in the NBA. Eat you heart out Cleveland. This is the worst sports city.
87 replies
Open
Gobbledydook (1389 D(B))
08 Mar 12 UTC
Threads in Webdip invariably derail. Case in point: This thread.
We have LGBT societies in many places (esp. universities) but we don't have Heterosexual Clubs. That is blatant sexual discrimination. Discuss.
21 replies
Open
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