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I've never run based on heart rate so I can't really comment on that. But I did skim through this thread. I knew you would be back for more!

Excellent half marathon time! I would caution you on shooting for the sub 4 on this upcoming race. A HM is the best predictor of a marathon time and you definitely finished strong and some in the tank. But as you know he marathon is an entirely different beast. I would recommend you see if there is a 4:15 pace group. Start out with them and be patient. I would stick with even pacing at 4:15 until the 20 mark and then evaluate whether you can start to pick it up from there. I think this would give you the most enjoyable marathon experience this time around. I think sub 4 is a little bit of a reach, and I know you don't want to hear that. You are a determined dude, I have no doubt you can break 4 hours but I think you should give it one more good training cycle before you take hat shot. Besides a 410-415 would be a huge PR and it feels awesome to finish a marathon really strong at the end.

Thanks for the feedback Gen. Lee!

I don't think this marathon will have pace groups, last year only 47 people competed. There were only 3 people that finished between 4 hours and under 4 hours 15 minutes.

I know I should have had a better HM time if I think I can run a sub 4 hour marathon. I have improved quite a bit since my first marathon attempt, so I'm confident if I put in another 4 months of training I would improve a bit more. An enjoyable marathon experience would be great, especially since the first one was pretty rough. I just don't see things playing out like that.

Have you ever seen that golf movie with Kevin Costner where he's leading some golf tournament with just a couple holes left to play, but then hits his ball in the water? He drops a new ball, goes for the exact same shot, and hits the ball in the water again? And again? And again?

I intend to try my best to be smart about things, and pace myself, so I can finish having run the entire race (except for walking through aid stations), but I'm fairly confident I'm going to want to give a sub 4 hour marathon a try, from the start... My intent is to complete the first half at a 9:15 pace, hopefully keeping the heart rates I noted above. I'm prepared to change things up as I go, react to the race, but I want to keep the sub 4 hour dream alive until the actual race smacks it out of me! :-)

Yes I know what you mean! Wow that is a small race. If you are going to go for it, I like the idea of begining with 9:15. Starting slow is really key. I think you have a shot at it, but it will be tough. Can't wait to hear a full race report...and hear which race you want to take down next.

There are a lot of benefits to small races. No crowd or competition, for starters, which means you can keep your adrenaline under control at the beginning of the race. You also get a ton of support from the rest of the field. Small races have a great sense of camaraderie among runners.

I raced a 5K this morning. TERRIBLE decision. I'm in marathon shape, not 5K shape. I don't understand why you go out and put forth so much effort for only 3 measly miles. Luckily, I've got my last 20 tomorrow, which I'm running on the back half of my upcoming marathon course that I'm not 100% familiar with. With a month to go, I'd like to get 13 at marathon pace sandwiched between three easy at the beginning and end. Beers afterward, naturally.

Actually, the 100 Day Marathon guy (Marius Bakken) recommends finishing the first half of a marathon in 2:02:23 (9:21/mile) if you want a 3:59:59 marathon, I'm just doubtful I could run the second half of a marathon in 1:57:36.

Today I'm supposed to do a two hour run at an easy Effort one pace, which Daniels says should be around 10:30 or so if you want to run a sub four hour marathon, but I'm very tempted to just give my heart rates listed above a test. Maybe I will compromise and do the first hour per my chart, doing the first mile at an HR around 149, and then slowly get my HR to 155 at the hour / 7 mile point, and after that adopt a 10:30/mile pace for the last hour. Decisions decisions!

Interesting comment about the 5K, 2WL. I signed up for a 10K that is three weeks after my marathon, but I was considering changing it to a 5K. Maybe I should change to the half marathon instead.

Today's two hour run was simultaneously a complete failure, the perfect learning opportunity, and a marked sign of improvement.

My intention was to spend the first hour implementing my marathon race day heart rate plan. So, I was supposed to spend the first 10 minutes with my HR in the hi 140s, and the next 50 minutes in the lo 150s. At that point, I would consider pushing into the hi 150s for a little while, but I wanted to be smart and not run too hard since I was technically supposed to run the entire two hours in the lo 140s. Well, I got a little excited, wanting to prove to myself that I do have a sub 4 hour marathon in me, and I only spent 5 minutes in the hi 140s, only 15 minutes in the lo 150s, and the final 40 minutes of the first hour in the hi 150s. FAIL!!!!

So, screwing up my paces so badly was an excellent reminder of what *not* to do on race day, something I clearly needed to be reminded of. My course has it's "big" hill (the first of only two hills, and it's only ~100 feet of elevation gain) between mile 2 and mile 3. I *must* be very careful with that hill, since I have basically done no hill training whatsoever. So, my new plan is to keep my HR in the hi 140s for the first 30 minutes, which will include the big hill, which should help insure I have plenty of energy left in the tank. After that, I plan to target a specific HR for each additional 30 minutes (rather than based on mileage), and I'll transition from hi 140s in the first 30 minutes to lo 150s, mid 150s, hi 150s to finish up the second hour, lo 160s, mid 160s, hi 160s and then lo 170s for (hopefully!) my final 30 minutes.

Now for the optimistic part. Even though I completely failed at pacing myself for a marathon, if I compare my first hour today to the first hour of my 1:57:04 half marathon, I did much better *and* kept my HR lower. For the first 30 minutes of that HM, my HR was ~160, and for the second 30 minutes my HR was ~165, which resulted in the following splits the first 7 miles:

8:49, 9:14, 9:13, 9:10, 9:03, 9:01, 9:34

Today, in the first hour, I had 5 minutes with my HR ~148, 15 minutes ~153, and 40 minutes ~159, with the following splits:

8:11, 8:44, 8:46, 9:03, 9:11, 9:07, 9:20

So, for the first 7 miles, I improved from 1:04:04 to 1:02:22 (running 6.74 miles in the first 60 minutes, an 8:55/mile pace), and if I continued that rate of improvement over the final 6.1 miles, I would have run a half marathon in ~1:53:58. That's kind of exciting to me, since that's getting me closer to the sub 4 hour marathon ballpark!

Okay, I know this is boring as hell, but this is all good info I can look back at during the next attempt! ;-)

Just two more workouts until race day:

Monday - 5 minutes at race pace, four times, with 2 minute (walking) recovery after each 5 minutes.

Thursday - 30 minute Effort 1 / easy run

Sunday - Lake Lowell Marathon!!

http://lakelowellmarathon.com

The race started well. I realized a 9:00 pace was clearly a dream very quickly, and focused on my heart rate first and foremost, hoping to get under a 10:00 pace. The first hour I kept my HR around 75%max, which I was really happy about, and I did not exceed HR 80%max by the half way, which I hit right around two hours and 15 minutes, ~10:10 pace. It had been blowing really hard all morning, I have never run in such strong winds, and after the turnaround the wind was square in my face. My knees/legs have held up real well during training, but my back has been a bit weak, and at the 2.5 hour mark my back had about all it could take. I starting walking, right around the 16 mile mark, but was able to jog some and power walk a lot for the rest of the race. Finished in about 5 hours 15 minutes, just under a 12:00 pace. Looks like that's two strikes, but in this game, I may very well be out! ;-)

Good job, man -- that's more than 99.9% of us can do. You should be proud of yourself for the training and discipline you showed to get as far as you did.

Nice work Marx. You put in the weeks of training, the race itself is only a small part of the experience. Wind kills, especially when you're working against it when you're already tired.

Thanks guys, I appreciate the support! I just read winds have averaged 22 mph with gusts up to 30 mph, but I'm sure it was worse around the lake!! ;-)

Damn, now I may have to do a third one day, since it is the charm, but probably not for a few years...

I'm still really disappointed I wasn't able to run the entire distance, regardless of the time it would have taken me... My lungs didn't hit a wall, and my legs/knees/ankles didn't hit a wall, but one of the vertebra in my lower back worked it's way out of alignment and that kind of pain is not the sort I could push through 2.5+ hours into the run...

Oh well, time to move on... Not sure when I'll be back around, you all play nice together while I'm away!!

Dude, you finished a marathon, and you ran a lot of it. That's a really impressive achievement, not something worthy of regret or disappointment.

Good job finishing your second marathon, as others have said that is no small task!

Now... pick a race in 8 weeks or so, redo the last 8 weeks of your training plan BUT without racing/giving hard effort on any of your long runs. Only go hard once per week, no longer than 8 miles at hard effort. Sign up for the 4:20 pace group and go out 100 meters behind them for the first 5 miles. Slowly catch up over next 2 and then stay with them until 20. I guarantee success! ;-)

Good advice, General.

You put 10 months in of marathon training, with the goal of running the entire way, it's a little disappointing to fall short... That said, you don't train that long because it's easy and everyone can do it, so it just may not be in the cards for me...

I'd definitely try another marathon soon, along with some back strengthening and flexibility exercises, but the wife is due with our first kid in 5 weeks, so I'll have to start from scratch another time, my priorities have shifted! :-)

Dude, you travel led 26 miles by foot without stopping. I couldn't do that and I daresay the majority of this group couldn't either. Be proud and plan to do it again when life permits.

In life it's not always the arrival but the journey that is important, judge a person by how they lived not how they died.
Ironically though for you MM the next 5 weeks is all about 'the arrival'.
Vive la difference, it's a game changer, especially if you're used to sleeping at night :-)

Congrats on the kid! I'm sure he'll be beating us all at diplomacy soon enough.

Mad Marx II - The Sequel
It may end up being a webdip champion dynasty who rule this site for hundreds of years