"Better question--when we're supposed to have a SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE, why are you using that book to deny people rights AT ALL? "

Who is trying to deny rights? Certainly not Christianity as a whole and certainly nothing in your OP article says *anything* about trying to deny gays rights.

And Deuteronomy is from *your* Torah, Christ Killer.

Well, that last obiwanobiwan post shows whatever limited value the thread once had is gone. Goodbye.

"No, they don't know shit about Christianity. They are televangelists ripping people off and calling themselves Christians. Christ would smack them upside the head for their actions. Guaranteed. And He had the patience of, well, Him."

Fair enough, we can come together on that, Draug...

But you can't deny their influence, and tens of millions--if not more--of Americans would side with them and disagree with us there.

So I'm directing the bulk of my criticism here at the Falwell-ites and Co. as, again, they're at the very least the most powerful and vocal of the Evangelicals, which is the group most vocal in attacking gays (and Jews, Billy Graham and Robertson both had strong Anti-Semitic words against them) today, with the possible exception of the Mormon Church, which is a group founded by a man claimed black people had their skin pigment that way because they were descended from fallen angels and that the Native Americans were the real Jews, so yeah...I won't even go *there.*

@draugnar: that sounds very very reasonable, thank you.

"And Deuteronomy is from *your* Torah, Christ Killer."

And I stated as much, and so is Leviticus...so why should CHRISTIANS use it against people then?

"Who is trying to deny rights? Certainly not Christianity as a whole and certainly nothing in your OP article says *anything* about trying to deny gays rights."

That huge swath of Billy Graham/Jerry Falwell/Pat Robertson supporters and off-shoots I referenced earlier...

To say nothing of (again) the Church of Latter Day Saints, which is the fastest growing denomination in the country and just had a guy get hundreds of millions of votes for president...

Tens of millions out of hundreds of millions, so like 10% of the moron sheeple are influenced by those two fucks.

And again, making the stereotype argument of "Christianity does this" and "Christians do that". I return to calling you a Christ Killer until you recognize the error of your ways. "Christianity" and "Christians" do no such thing. The largest single group of Christians is the Catholics. The second largest in the world is Lutherans (and third in the US). We don't listen to Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell. Quit lumping all of Christianity together.

"Only someone so unfamiliar with Christianity like obiwanobiwan could think homosexuality is some special sin. In Catholicism it's a mortal sin like--wait for it--masturbation! It's just one sin among many, many others, and ALL humans sin ALL the time."

Then why do we discriminate against people for being gay but not for masturbating?

Seems to me we HUMANS are the ones treating some sins as more equal than others...

I'm assuming no one would deny anyone here the right to marry the love of their life because they jacked off?

And the Mormons are, arguable, not Christians. They have this perverted book they think is the equal and a supplement to the Bible and that they have some living prophet. Oh, and if their book contradicts the bible, then their book is right and the bible must be in error.

And I doubt you could find more than 3 people here who would deny a gay person the right to have a loving relationship with their partner recognized by the state the same as for a hetero couple. The only issue some have is with the use of the word marriage and that is easy to handle, take the government out of the marriage business (separation of church and state if you will, although this is a flawed argument as that never appears in any legal document from the founding fathers).

"Tens of millions out of hundreds of millions, so like 10% of the moron sheeple are influenced by those two fucks."

Tens of millions and a VOCAL tens of millions...

Enough to get people like Palin into a spot where she could run on a presidential ticket...
Enough to get Bachmann to run for President...
Enough to get Romney within a few states of being President...

It's NOT a small group, Draug--not in terms of political power or financial power or rhetorical power.

"The largest single group of Christians is the Catholics."

And they're famed for their tolerance towards gays and Jews...just took them until 1964 to drop that pesky charge of Christ Killer...and despite the current (surprisingly progressive thus far) pope, STILL a pretty anti-gay marriage group.

"The second largest in the world is Lutherans"

Founded by a man who's hatred for the Jews in Medieval would-be Germany trickled down through the ages...with such great results...

"We don't listen to Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell."

Tens of millions of you do, and like it or not, they're the ones with an increasing amount of political power.

Thank you Obi by acknowledging that I was right with your silence and refusal to address the *complete* comment I made including the very-popular bashing of Miley Cyrus’ overt heterosexuality, which the public at large despises being subjected to…just as we are sick and tired of having overt homosexuality shoved in our face by everyone crawling out of the closet seeking praise for being so “brave”…

By your silence, you acknowledge that when the homo’s seek public praise and shove their sexuality in our faces, they are equally as obnoxious as Miley Cyrus, and deserved of bashing.

People can find happiness under a multitude of horrible circumstances, and while suffering the worst injustices. I have no doubt that most black Americans in the Jom Crow South managed to be reasonably happy despite the unjust social structures.

"Founded by a man who's hatred for the Jews in ..."

Actually, Lutheranism wasn't founded by Martin Luther. You need to check your history books. He never intended to found a church, but to reform Catholicism. As a Lutheran all my life, I can speak with certainty on this subject of which you only know a little. As far as his attitudes towards Jews, they were already the predominant attitude of the age.

"Tens of millions of you do, and like it or not"

Jesus you can't read worth shit. You know I am a Lutheran. When I say we after mentioning the Catholics and the Lutherans, I am referring to those two groups, one of whom I am a part of. You just really are a fucking illiterate poser.

"And the Mormons are, arguable, not Christians. They have this perverted book they think is the equal and a supplement to the Bible and that they have some living prophet. Oh, and if their book contradicts the bible, then their book is right and the bible must be in error."

1. I'll leave the "Are they/Are they not Christians" debate for another thread since I honestly am NOT the right one to cast a deciding vote there...and anyway, I don't have a dog in that fight anyway, do I?

2. That being said, they seem to consider themselves Christians and some others do, so if I classify them as such, you'll forgive me for the moment (just pretend they have a steroids-era-esque asterisk next to the denomination.)

3. I will beg the question what makes their different book with a different prophet a "perversion" since, well, that's kind of what the New Testament is/was in the eyes of a lot of Jews...so why is it OK for the NT but not the BoM? If the answer is because they broke away/are perceived to have broken away the same way Christians broke away from the Jews, fair enough, I guess...

4. Given that it has such glowing endorsements as "chloroform in print"--thank you, Mark Twain--I've never read it and just know the "premise"...so I guess I can't comment on whether or not it contradicts the Bible...how does it do so, and again, why is that OK when the NT has some revisions compared to the OT (I'm assuming you weren't circumcised and can eat pork?)

5. "And I doubt you could find more than 3 people here who would deny a gay person the right to have a loving relationship with their partner recognized by the state the same as for a hetero couple. The only issue some have is with the use of the word marriage and that is easy to handle, take the government out of the marriage business (separation of church and state if you will, although this is a flawed argument as that never appears in any legal document from the founding fathers)."

I agree with you there...

But we both know that's NOT going to happen, so it's sadly not a practical alternative.

...And now I need to go back because apparently krellin made a reference to Miley Cyrus and I missed it...?!

xD

I am so, so sorry krellin...I would NEVER willingly pass up "krellin + Miley Cyrus," I assure you, my morbid curiosity would get the better of me each time! ;)

You answered point 3 within point 3. I am no more a Jew than a Mormon is a Christian.

@krellin: "when the homo’s seek public praise and shove their sexuality in our faces, they are equally as obnoxious as Miley Cyrus, and deserved of bashing"

i basically agree with you. the only problem is that miley cyrus doesn't get bashed because she's heterosexual, but because she takes sexuality in general to an extreme. homosexuals often get bashed for being openly homosexual, not openly sexual.

obi - just proof positive that you are not reading and responding, but just spewing your hatred and attacks without knowing what you are responding to.

Do you want to stick with "idiot" or shall we come up with some new accurate descriptors?

And point 4 is for the same reason as point 3. If they want to have their little religion with their living prophet in Salt Lake City (or wherever in Utah he is), so be it. But they simple aren't Christians. They are sacrilegious to Christianity just as Christianity is sacrilegious to Judaism.

And homosexuals get bashed for being overtly homosexual, not just openly.

be it overtly, not openly, that is not my point.

"homosexuals often get bashed for being openly homosexual, not openly sexual. "

kasi - NOBODY in my office is openly sexual...hetero or homo...and anyone doing so will be fired. It's not appropriate.

Be gay - who gives a fuck...why do you have to be "openly gay". I'm not "openly heterosexual". Why does David have to be "Gay David", because that's how they increasingly play it, and then get offended when someone says they don't want to hear it.

I'm not "hetero krellin" I'm krellin.

Take it from an ex-mormon. They are outside orthodox Christianity.

okay, i have to agree, krellin, draugnar. you get that point. i just want to point out that most homosexuals i know (i can only speak from my point of view) simply want the right to marry. they don't want to shove it in your face.

Who was that cock-sucking asketball player that came out recently, and everyone fawned all over him because he’s suddenly openly gay. It seems he had no difficulty being gay, sucking cock, living life before…his being gay didn’t harm him in any way - but backside of his career, not a very good palyer…oh, play the “I suck cock card” and maybe I’ll get a career extension because everyone will be afraid to fire the open cock-sucker for fear of being labeled as a gay-basher…Fuck that.

But it is my point, kas. Overtly homosexual is no different from overtly heterosexual (i.e. Miley Cyrus of late). When you go around dressing like Tim Curry in Rocky Horror, you are being overtly homosexual (and overtly sexual). There are plenty of gay people who dress and act like the average Joe. They are completely unisexual in public. And yes, I have a problem with teenagers who show massive PDA be it hetero or homo sexual. The place for sex is the privacy of the home or hotel room or wherever. It is not groping and fondling and shoving your tongue down someone else's throat at the mall.