To run fast, you have to run long first. To run long, you have to run slow first. To run slow, you just have to have patience. In the end, you will run fast AND long.

I hope that's all true, VB, as I have the patience of Job.

@MM

Tri's are set up for a lot of different ability levels (with serious competitors at every level). A sprint triathlon is usually only a few 600 meter swim/ a 13 mile bike / and three mile run. The big thing for swimming is just learning the language freestyle stroke. I built a lot of stamina just swimming laps at a local pool. At the beginning of summer, I was killing myself just to get across the pool, but with lots of tips from the other swimmer I was doing a half mile before I knew it. I did a lot of backstroke laps to build endurance and get used to the sink water. Swimming is definitely a big help if you can go a couple of times a week. Twenty minutes is usually about all it takes.

I hate this touchscreen keyboard. I hit post reply and find out all these words I didn't think I'd typed are all over my post.

**the freestyle stroke**
**to the water**

Anyway, my triathlon a bet between my daughter and I. She said she wanted to join the track team when she gets to high school. I challenged her to train for a triathlon with me to help her toward the goal. We get out and bike together from time to time. She definitely likes running better than I do though. My thing is the bike.

A good idea may be to incorporate periods of marathon pace into your long runs. If you're doing 18, for example, start off with 6 easy, 6 at marathon pace, and finish with 6 easy. If you do a long run at your easy pace one weekend, follow that next weekend with 12 or 13 at marathon goal pace. Train at the pace you want and your body will slowly adapt.

Went out this morning for what was supposed to be 17 at 8:00 pace after 11 at marathon pace yesterday. Turned into 20 at 7:30 pace after deciding that I felt too good at 15 to cut it short. 20K trail race scheduled for two weeks from today as a race tuneup.

CA, I just may have to try one of those sprints one day, but hopefully I'll never try an Iron Man, that's be an east way to tell I'm Crazy too!

2WL, glad your run went so well, nice job! My session today was a complete disaster... Turns out I lied, a big fat whopper, when it comes to running I am anything but patient...

My schedule called for a 3 hour workout today, 70% running and 30% walking. My last one of these, two weeks ago, had the same percentages but only 2.5 hours. Anyway, getting to walk makes it sound like it won't be a difficult workout. Then I got to reading the Daniels book where he talks about Marathon Pace, after 2WL's earlier post, so I thought I'd try to kill two birds with this workout and try a bit of Marathon Pace rather than Easy. Also, last time I ran 20 minutes and walked 5, but this time, with Marathon Pace, figured I'd run 20 minutes then walk 10.

My first 20 minute run portion I set the treadmill at a 10:00 mile (it snowed at least an inch last night) with a 1% incline, and my HR got to ~82% HRmax (supposed to limit to ~72% HRmax for a long/easy run). The next next run portion, same settings, up to ~85% HRmax. Shit!! I dropped down to 5.5 miles an hour (~11:00 mile) the next two 20 minute runs (to wrap up the second hour of the workout), and again I got up to ~85% HRmax by the end. At that point I was pretty much done, physically and mentally, so I just walked the entire last hour, mostly at 3.8 miles an hour...

Two weeks ago when I did 2.5 hours, I got to run outside and it went much better, though relatively slow compared to my dream of running a sub 4 hour marathon, or even a sub 10:00 mile marathon... My final time doesn't really matter that much to me, on race day, as long as I put in the work and give it all I have, or at least that's what I'm telling myself. But that said, I do have my hopes up a bit since running a sub 50 minute 10K the other day, it'll be interesting to see how it plays out this second time around...

I figured something out today. I struggle on the treadmill! That may be a good thing, since running outside seems a lot easier in comparison, but I am starting to dread the gym, at least a little, especially for any workout longer than an hour.

I left work a little early today and headed to the track for an easy run of somewhere between 40 and 70 minutes. After a 10 minute walk to warm up, is started raining lightly, which was kind of a bummer since it was only about 45 degrees out. Regardless, I ran at 170 spm, curious to see how that went compared to Saturday on the treadmill. I ended up running 5 miles at a 9:30 pace (47 minute 30 second workout) and my HR was right around 75% HRmax for most of the run. After 20 minutes on a treadmill I was at 82% HRmax when running a 10:00 mile. Maybe the 1% incline on the treadmill is harder than it seems it should be, but that's fine by me, especially since my marathon will be run outside, not on a treadmill!

MM - just a couple of things having read your posts, not sure if it helps but hey ....
Firstly all your focus seems to be on the technical side of running but the truth is, most people can run, even little kids.
If you are getting fitter, losing weight, eating healthily, doing some cross-training to freshen things up a bit, I would say these are all things that will help you also.
Having good core strength and good upper body strength all helps as well. I used to do some great lower back exercises that really made me stronger, also anything competitive such as squash, badminton, tennis pushes you a bit and exercises other muscles. The main thing that helped me was swimming because it made me more oxygen efficient. I would say swimmers have to have some of the most efficient digestive systems.
I used to run for weight loss, swim for fitness, work out to gain strength and play football/squash/tennis for agility/mobility/balance and golf for fun/frustration.
I may be wrong but I think a mixture of these things could really help your running.
Please don't shoot me if you don't agree ..... it's different strokes for different blokes

"most people can run, even little kids."

That's where you lost me. Let me guess, you're at most 5'-6" tall and 100 pounds soaking wet? Okay, I'm teasing, but as with most jokes, there is some truth behind it. When I started training, I weighed nearly 240 pounds. Yes, I could run, but to run 26.2 miles in a continuous "race", that requires 100's of miles run in preparation, is a serious undertaking! I know that because last fall my training resulted in injury, because I had poor form, and when you are as "large" as I am, little things get magnified exponentially... I could go on, but I'll spare you, just know I do take offense!! :-P

I was on a city-league basketball team this winter, I think that was helpful, regarding cross training. After my knee injury, I went to physical therapy a few times and learned some exercises to strengthen weak portions of my body, such as walking lunges, and I've done those 2 -3 times per week, including some core exercises. Basketball is now over, and as running workouts get more intense (marathon is six weeks away) I'm doing much less complimentary exercising, so right now I'm mainly just running and doing a bit of core work...

Suppose I've been going off on a tangent here, but overall I think you offer good suggestions when it comes to a long-term approach. For me, time is running out on this attempt, and my biggest problem at the moment is cutting a few more pounds by eating better. Life's been a little out of control, so I haven't been shopping much for quality food, or taking time to prepare quality food, but now is the time for a final push in that regard, hope I can get my act together quickly!!

MM - I'm 1.95m tall and weigh about 300 lbs.
Even at my fittest my running weight was 210 lbs.
The reason why I was cautious about 'over-running' even then is because as you get older your knees, ankles, feet remember every mile you have ever run. I never trained more than 8 miles runs for half-marathons because I was worried about injuries. My fastest half about 1hr 37mins, my slowest just over 2 hours.
The reason for my interest in the subject is that before I get too old I have set myself the target of running one marathon, the London Marathon. To do this I will need to lose 90lbs, unfortunately this year I didn't get in but I apply again in April.
Once I know I have a place I will lose about 80-90lbs.
Sounds drastic but I can't wait to get accepted and start that 9 month regime, so I'm following your efforts with great interest.....

Every time an Englishman quotes his height in metres a fairy dies. Shame on you Nigs. I understand you ignoring stone so Americans can understand with their bizzare pounds only system, but this metre lark is beyond the pale.

In all seriousness, best of luck to the both of you. I am 71 1/4 " high and 14 stone, and whilst I can indeed run I find little pleasure in it. Still, for those that do a marathon is an impressive goal. I have been suitably inspired to look into attempting the 3 peaks again after never quite finding the time when at uni.

I'm mixing my metaphors there quoting metres and pounds ...... sorry about that, 6ft 4 and a half I meant to say. What is the word metres in American?
I'm a bad man ..... not to self, 'must do better' (not butter, it's fattening)

You struggle on the dreadmill? Join the club. I did 6 miles on it yesterday because of ice and wanted to shoot myself.

"Personally, I think the obsession with a specific cadence and heart rate is a bit too complicated,"

Yes, and as much as I want to pay attention to that stuff...I don't have the attention span for it. I use the Garmin to do that hard work for me. I've tried to train within HR zones, but then realize, I just want to run.

Any barefoot runners here? (Sorry for hijacking your thread MM!) I've been in Vibrams for the past year, and looking at running my longest race in them at the end of this month.

I dabbled in barefoot a few years ago and although it didn't last long, I do incorporate some barefoot and minimalist running into my regular training. During my track workouts I always incorporate a few barefoot intervals because I think its good for my form as well as helping me to avoid injury. To each his own, though. Running is a very idiosyncratic sport and what works for one person is by no means guaranteed to work for another.

I had never liked running, but have always loved music and numbers. Historically, running to music was merely a break even sort of thing, the positive of listening to music was canceled out by the negative of running. BUT, once numbers were introduced into the equation, the balance easily tipped in favor of running!

Even if I bitch about it, I really enjoy analyzing heart rate versus strides per minute versus my pace, and trying to figure out how to maximize my success, whether it be for an individual workout or come race day.

Tomorrow I have a two hour workout, broken into three 40 minute sections. The first part I will limit my HR to 149bpm, the next 159bpm and the last part 169bpm. I'm going to try to run at 170 strides per minute the entire two hours. I don't know what paces that will result in, but I'm hoping it will average around 9:12 miles so I will have completed a half marathon. A week from Saturday my training schedule calls for a half marathon, so tomorrow's trainng run will provide some real insight into what my body is capable of at the moment, and this sort of thought process is a big part of what I like about training for a marathon... Not that anyone asked, but as NB stated, different strokes!

if you are a stats man ... then stats can motivate, I get that :-)

Well, yesterday's two hour run was a little rough. Think I got a little over-excited about how well Monday night's short run went, but there were some positives that came out of it too, if I only search hard enough...

My top goal was to maintain 170 strides per minute the entire run. My secondary goal was to keep my Heart Rate within specific ranges for each of the three 40 minute portions of the run. My third goal was that I'd average a 9:12 pace so that I would have run a half marathon in 2 hours. My final goal was to err on the side of aiming too high with my goals rather than too low, and this is the only one I attained!

I was able to maintain 170 spm the entire first hour, which is a step in the right direction, assuming you're okay ignoring the other 10,199. I then hit a little rough patch where I backed off just a bit, hopefully still in the 160s, but I got back on track and probably hit my 170 goal about 75% of my running in the second hour.

I didn't do nearly as well with my Heart Rate. The first 40 minutes I was supposed to limit my HR to 72% of HR max, but I averaged about 78% of HRmax. The second 40 minutes limit was 80% HRmax, I averaged 83%. The final 40 minutes limit was 87% HRmax, and I did hit that goal, but only for 30 minutes, I was pretty wiped out and walked the last 10 minutes. Fail!!

My distance "goal" was a bit more wishful thinking than anything, I came nowhere near that. I ended up running a little over 10.5 miles in the 110 minutes, a pace of nearly 10:30/mile. I attribute part of that to the attempt to transition from 160 spm to 170, but at the same time I'm not overly concerned, in theory, about the actual time as my #1 priority is to train so that on race day I run the entire distance (except for walking when I grab a drink at each and every one of the FIFTEEN aid stations) even if that takes me five hours or more. In order to meet this goal, I plan to max out at 170 spm, hopefully get that dialed in (though if I feel 160 will work better for race day I won't hesitate to go back to that), and attempt to focus more on keeping my HR where it needs to be to meet my duration goals. It's a tricky business, at least for me, but I'm enjoying the process and hopeful I can at least break a 10:00 mile pace for the marathon, if not miraculously pull a 3:59:59 time out of thin air!!

Running is a challenge. I want to define my runs with numbers and logic, hopefully I learn to quit doing that before I drive myself crazy.

Friday I did a 70 minute E1/easy run. I kept up with the 170 strides the entire time, though I had to focus at the hour point. Turns out, the song at the hour point is actually 178 bpm rather than the 172 noted on the website I was using, so that makes me feel a little bit better!

Friday I kept my HR around 75% HRmax most of the run, I didn't feel like I ran that hard once it was over, and my pace was just under a 10:00 mile. About 30 seconds per mile slower than Monday's 5 mile run (though my HR was slightly lower), but about 30 faster per mile than Wednesday's run where my HR was significantly higher and I whipped out at the end. I don't get it!

It's true that Wednesday was the coldest of the three runs, windiest, rainiest, and I was wearing the most clothes (including wool long underwear!), but that sort of stuff seams more like excuses than a real reason to be so much slower... Maybe combining that with a little less sleep and being a little more active before the run, maybe having a bit less energy, maybe it all adds up... I know better days and worse days are to be expected, just wish I had a better idea of why...

Tomorrow I walk/run for 3 hours 30 minutes, 30% walk, 70% E1/easy run. Think I'll run for 15 minutes and walk for 5, over and over, and if I'm feeling up to it, I'll push it to four hours. I plan to stick to 170 spm, though I may throw in a 180 for 15 minutes here and there. Next weekend I do a timed half marathon I use to determine my marathon pace, I may give 180 spm a try for that, see how I hold up.

Half Marathon Today:

1:57:04 (splits: 8:49, 9:14, 9:13, 9:10, 9:03, 9:01, 9:34, 8:56, 8:16, 8:44, 8:42, 8:46, 8:52, 7:18) - the 7:18 is just for the last 0.1 mile

I always hope for much more than I am capable of, wanting a 1:49:59, but overall I am very pleased. I did a bit of experimenting. I started out trying 180 strides per minute, which lasted about 20 minutes before I realized that was not helping anything, so I switched to 170 spm. I kept my HR around 82% HRmax for the first half hour. For the next hour or so, my HR was around 85% HRmax. With about 5 minutes left in my run, I was around 87% HRmax, and then, trying to at least finish in under 1:57:00, I maxed out about 92% HRmax.

With about 20 minutes left in my run, I decided to try 180 spm again, to help me finish strong, but that only lasted about 5 minutes. I was pretty happy about keeping my HR below the anaerobic threshold up until the last 5 minutes of the run, and I felt relatively strong, like I could keep up the 85%-87% HRmax rate for quite some time, which is great since I don't know otherwise. I'm confident the marathon is going to be hell, and based on my 100 Day Marathon pace estimator it predicts I will finish the marathon in just under 4:20:00, but I'm going to keep my mind open to some sort of race day miracle that will result in a final time of 3:59:59 or less, but I suppose I shouldn't hold my breath.

PS - The 9:34 split included a short walking break to get a drink, I did three of those, about every 30 minutes.

Well done, congratulations...... hopefully np injuries picked up to disrupt your training program

Nice work MM. One month to go and a solid half marathon. That 7:18 is no fluke - that means you've still got a fast finish after 12 miles, which means you're probably in better shape than you think. Maybe not sub-4 fast, but definitely "run the whole thing" fast. You'll do fine. Always good to have a B goal in mind too if you need to reevaluate your priorities. Sub-4 is obviously your A goal, maybe your B could be a 4:15 or running the whole way. Helps avoid disappointment, especially if you're like me and have yet to hit an A goal in a big race.

Speaking of big races, I had a 25K trail race today, six weeks out from Country Music I was using it as a tuneup and a quality long run. Ended up being 16.3 miles according to my GPS, which I think should be accurate, since there weren't a lot of twists and turns on the course, which always throws my GPS off. Finished at 2:30 even and came in fifth overall in my race (there was also a 12 and 50K). I was in 7th at the halfway point and race strategically in the second half to pass two people. I don't have great straight line speed, but my strength is the downhills, so that's where I made up my time.

Hills were *insane*. The first mile had the steepest downhill AND steepest uphill I ever ran. Well, "ran" is the wrong word - I hiked the uphill. lf it were a ski trail, it would definitely have been a double black diamond. Trails were very technical and rough, not to mention thorny, as my bloody legs can attest to. Check out the elevation profile:

http://i.imgur.com/w9aV71M.png

After the race I had a few beers and pet a corgi. Best prize ever.

Thanks guys. My B goal is less than a 10:00 mile (4:21:59), my C goal is sub 5 hour and my D goal is faster than my first marathon where I had a knee issue and walked/limped the last 10 miles (5:47:48).

Today's workout was 6 sets that involved 6 minutes at Effort 3 (anaerobic threshold) followed by 2 minutes at Effort 2 (a bit slower than Effort 3, obviously, but not so laid back as Effort 1... what a brilliant explanation!). So, that totals 48 minutes. At the 30 minute point, I was still ahead of my last 10K pace, so once I finished 5 of the 6 sets (at the 40 minute point), I just decided to run hard in the hopes of completing a 10K at under an 8 minute mile (last time I was at 8:02). I did it at a 7:58 pace this time, not much of an improvement, but with all the Effort 2 running (10 minutes worth), I felt like maybe I have a sub 48 minute 10K in me that wants to come out, maybe one day I'll find out, but from now on I better stick to my schedule a bit more closely.

10K Progress To Date:

June 29th: 59:32 (splits: 9:05, 9:12, 9:19, 9:37, 10:22, 9:49, 9:28)
July 6th: 59:11 (splits: 9:58, 9:40, 9:32, 9:33, 9:27, 9:12, 8:24)
July 24th: 57:59 (splits: 8:32, 9:00, 9:06, 9:47, 9:58, 9:53, 8:06)
July 31st: 56:43 (splits: 9:11, 8:59, 9:07, 9:11, 9:03, 9:24, 8:36)
Aug. 14th: 55:35 (splits: 8:02, 9:04, 8:57, 9:14, 9:18, 9:06, 8:53)
Sept. 15th: 55:14 (splits: 8:52, 8:56, 9:01, 8:55, 8:46, 8:48, 8:48)
Sept. 23rd: 52:59 (splits: 8:49, 8:42, 8:31, 8:33, 8:47, 7:56, 7:47)
Oct. 9th: 52:48 (splits: 9:11, 8:41, 8:37, 8:18, 8:23, 7:59, 7:39)
Oct. 16th: 52:29 (splits: 8:48, 8:08, 8:10, 8:16, 8:42, 8:43, 7:41)
Oct. 27th: Columbia Gorge Marathon

Feb. 22nd: 49:53 (splits: 7:25, 8:00, 8:10, 8:33, 8:20, 7:54, 7:08)
Mar. 19th: 49:19 (splits: 7:35, 7:45, 8:17, 7:58, 8:27, 7:49, 7:27)

These are respectable times ...... you've progressed from jogger to runner :-)

This weekend I had a 4 hour workout, 25% walking, 75% running. All that walking makes it sound easy, but I think that gets you out of your rhythm a bit and it turns out to be a real challenge. Two weeks ago I was supposed to do a 3.5 hour workout, and I didn't keep my pace slow enough, and I quit at the three hour point. Anyway, the running in hour one I kept my HR at ~70% HRmax, after two hours I was at ~72% HRmax, after 3 hours I was at 75% HRmax, and during the last hour I was around 77% HRmax. I ended up going 20.59 miles, which results in an 11:40 mile pace. When I quit after 3 hours two weeks ago I did 16.27 miles for a pace of 11:04, but my HR was between 75% and 80% HRmax the entire run.

Time for the taper...