anti-choice would be an appropriate name for a movement which felt the government should mandate abortions for all.

Of course being pro-humanity - or in supporting human rights and welfare - is I think the ideal we are all aiming for.

Sorry, just to be clear, my point is, the 'pro/anti-*' view of politics is a false dichotomy. It fails to address the complexity of the issues in question.

Define humanity then. How do you pinpoint when that starts?

@Orathaic That is true and thank you for the clarification.

the start and end points are fuzzy, not some simple cut off point...

We recognise that a human develops over time when it comes to juvenile crime and voting/drinking rights, parental rights to imprison their children and several other issues.

If you can tell me when it starts with some perfect accuracy and precision, then i will bow to your knowledge, but if not then I don't think you have any moral authority to tell anyone else when it starts either.

Absolutely not, but I don't think I have the right to tell another women what to do with her body either. No one does.

Ask a woman that just had a miscarriage after 2 months when life starts...she'll tell you with no uncertainty that she just lost her *baby*...her unborn person.

Ask a woman who just found out that she is pregnant and doesn't want to be pregnent shy she wants an abortion, and she'll tell you she doesn't want a baby.

Funny...from a WOMAN'S standpoint, regardless of which side of the abortion argument you are on, all women pretty much agree that thing inside them is a living baby...

It's you men that want to discuss what it is you are forcefully ejecting from it's natural state...

@Celtic - not to be utterly redundant....but who is standing up for the rights of the baby human being inside the female human being? You guys are like air force bombers....it's really easy to kill from 10,000 feet when all you have to do is push the button. Likewise, it's easy to kill that unseen "thing" inside her, isn't it?

@krellin - Celtic is a woman...

What do you mean you men? If I were to get pregnant my husband and i would discuss the situation. We both do not want children. So we would decide together what would happen.

That's just me however. I cannot decide for another what she should do with her body. No more then I could go up to a man who can't support the children he has and say get a vasectomy. It's all about individual choice.

Oh and I probably wouldn't consider it a baby myself until I felt it move.

Fine - whatever - What does her being a woman have to do with the human being inside a pregnant woman? It didn't ask to be there, and sure as hell isn't asking to be literally torn apart by a medical vacuum machine...

But Celtic...if you get pregnant, you are more than willing to possibly decide that you want to destroy the body of another human being? Hands off YOU....but as for the baby inside you, it's fair game for abuse? Odd standard there...

It comes down to determining when a foetus is legally and / or morally a person, and nobody agrees, and the problem is undecidable. That simply means you cannot use time of personhood as a basis to enact legislation, and any arguments for or against it are pointless.

Up until a certain point it wouldn't be a baby to me. I said that. I probably wouldn't have an abortion after the first trimester unless there were serious complications for me or the child.

Though really this argument about abortion is moot. Even if it is made illegal they won't stop. So you'd rather have women bleeding to death again versus being able to regulate it?

A better focus should be on preventative measures that help to prevent abortion even being needed.

Understand it is a moot. overbeaten dead horse issue. Hell...murder is generally a frowned upon action, but it happens every day in Detroit. So what? We should just throw our hands in the air, say we'll never stop murder and just ignore the issue? Because for *some* people...a LOT of people...abortion is murder. I know that offends some of you, but I'm just saying that's what people feel.

Given that people do believe it's murder, it is ridiculous to expect them to just shut up and ignore it. Pedophiles are never going away either....shall we let them run loose and offer up our children? You get my point, I assume.

And before anyone comes out and says I hate women and all the typical vitriolic bullshit that is sure to start flying....give it a rest. I have a wife and two daughters - I am *all* about women having equal rights, equal access, etc etc etc. So lay to rest the asinine notion that anti-abortion = anti-woman....after all, about half (or more, if you look at China) of the abortions in the worlds are....ding ding...WOMEN...

I wasn't going to say that at all. But actually the majority of [people are in favor of keeping abortion legal.

I'm in the camp where I wouldn't personally advocate for an abortion for anyone, but I think that there's still enough disclarity on when the fetus becomes a person that it needs to be legal.

As for the "don't want to have a baby" meaning that you consider the fetus a baby, it actually means that you don't consider it a baby, the way I look at it. If I have some money and someone asks me if I want to buy a hot dog, and I say, "I don't want to have a hot dog," it doesn't mean that I consider my money to be a hot dog. It's a potentially exchangeable hot dog, and I don't want to follow the path where it is exchanged for a hot dog. The fetus is a potential baby, and those individuals don't want to follow the path where it becomes one.

Krellin, how can you say that you are pro woman's rights, yet you are saying that you have the right to make a decision for a woman. On a separate note, are you for the vaginal probe law in Virginia?

Because he's not question her rights but the rights of the fetus. I obviously don't agree but that's his stand point.

So if a women should be forced to keep a child Krellin what repercussions should the father of the child be forced to endure?

Abortion is unfortunate, but necessary. It has happened throughout history and will continue to happen whether it's made illegal or not. And whether people like krellin like it or not, that hunk of flesh is a part of a woman's body before it becomes a person. Oh no, the woman gets to decide for herself what she will do with her own body?? Somebody get the smelling salts, krellin is going to faint.

I should add that the conversation really boils down to this: what's informing your world-view? Most that would try to throw women and their doctors in jail for terminating a pregnancy would do so because of religion, not rational thinking. It's too important to ignore. Religions have made women second-class citizens throughout history so men could control them for breeding purposes. Sorry, scared old men, but the times they are a-changing.

'A better focus should be on preventative measures that help to prevent abortion even being needed.'

Agreed, and supporting a woman's right to make her own decision - ie empowering women, whether it be with access to contraception or abortion - has, in the past at least, resulted in improvements in a wide range of issues, from child welfare and mortality rates, to poverty levels and crime.

The facts of person-hood are quite clearly not black and white. It depends on your definition. I believe Bill Hicks once humour-esly said - 'you're not a person until you're in my phonebook'

When i have a girlfriend and she is worried that she may be pregnant then all i can do is offer to support her no matter what. I may have 50% of the responsibility for our actions, but she bear 99.99999% of the resulting burden.

I don't think i personally have the right to force my morales on someone else, and i equally don't think the government should have this right.

What does the scientific fact that when and egg and a sperm join together they have now created a unique DNA structure that is life? that has nothing to do with religion. Is that life in it's final form? No...of course not. Neither is a newborn baby that has yet gone through puberty...or an adult that has yet to hit (for example) menopause....all are different phases of a single thing: LIFE.

Is a bug larva life? Or is only life when it emerges in the final form?

The utter blatant hypocrisy of the "scientific " pro-abortion stance is laughable at best...

Ok Krellin at least answer my question to what consequences should the father have. Why should the mother be the only one forced to pay for their actions?

Whoa krelly, I am NOT pro abortion, I do not think anybody is that.

I'm pro-abortion, as long as it's in the 4th trimester.

Nope.. not an easy choice for anyone to make. But because we're pro choice means we must be pro-abortion and anti-life (I have been called both before).

Actually, I am personally pro life, but since I cannot force my beliefs onto somebody else I am politically pro choice. Since I am a man, I know that I will never be put in a place where I would have to decide whether or not to have an abortion. So I cannot determine that decision for others. I will never advocate for somebody to get an abortion, but conversely I cannot tell them that they must conform to my personal beliefs so they cannot get one. But if it were made to be illegal, lives would still be lost (both mother and potential child) due to attempts by desperate women to get an abortion through unsafe and dangerous means.

oh, and @Krellin's post regarding murder in Detroit.

The arguement wasn't that it's going to happen anyway so let's legalize it, the position being taken was, if we make this illegal women who choose to exercise their rights will die needlessly.

You are in favour or killing women who, due to circumstances whether family, religious or economic, would choose to have an abortion regardless of the law.

On the other hand, the solution to both your comment about Detroit's murders and laws regarding Abortion is still to do whatever we can, as a society, to help each other. To prevent the need for abortions, and the circumstances whereby individuals have so little to lose (in terms of societal status) and so much to gain (in terms of street-cred) by killing one and other.

The simplification of 'detroit criminals = evil' is a flawed misunderstanding of reality. It can be seen that humans will act to make themselves feel good and worthwhile, and when a society offers no other options or role-models young males will engage in violent behaviour and young females will engage in sexual behaviour.

They do this to impress their peers, to prove they are grown ups and to feel good. They will earn status among their peers which would have been very well understood in a pre-historic human culture.

There's a great film about violence http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gGf7fXM3jQ
Stephen Pinker.