Not really a war. Rather authorities clashing with protestors occupying buildings. More of a law enforcement action

And I guess you are younger than 25

War. lol God you're funny Thucy. what Ogion said.

Open up a history book, my friend.

Did you feel the same way when Iraw rolled into Kuwait? Did you feel the same way When Egypt and and Libya were being overthrown? How about the tens of thousands of dead in Syria? Or do all those non-white people not count??? Why the *sudden* horror about “war” only when it’s in “Europe” (code word: White folk)?

krellin, I understand what you're trying to get at, but when another nuclear nation is acting aggressive towards NATO nations it gets me a bit more scared than dictators oppressing their own people. One is strictly nations acting internally. While they are awful events, I never feared that Syria, Egypt, Libya, etc would in any way impact me and my life.

Russia is acting in an external manner. They are annexing territory. They are increasing their troops on the Polish border and playing games with our ships in the Black Sea. NATO's article 5 is what makes me afraid. Just as I would be afraid if China started making serious moves in the East.

But no, this is piddle-sticks compared to what older generations went through. I'm just reading up on all the scares in the 1960s....Jesus Christ this world almost ended half a hundred times.

Putin can say the same thing about NATO...and has.

"Jesus Christ this world almost ended half a hundred times. "

lol Yeah....keep believing that.

http://nuclearfiles.org/menu/key-issues/nuclear-weapons/issues/accidents/20-mishaps-maybe-caused-nuclear-war.htm

/\ because that's not propaganda.

I know I know...all reports of "doom and gloom" must of a necessity be 100% true to the political left. I get it, I get it...

You're forgetting you're talking to someone on the political right.

Some of that stuff is very serious. A nuclear bomber crashing next to a nuclear base before the crash failsafes on the bombs were perfected? Having a whole base of nuclear-tipped ICBM's and then launching a single non-nuclear ICBM? Having bombers rolling down the runway knowing there is no way to recall them once they're in the air?

The author at the end acknowledged his bias, but said even if there was a less than 1% chance for each of these events, its still amazing that nothing happened.

"Political Right" doesn't mean you are gullible to anti-nuke propaganda. Espeically when...."...The author at the end acknowledged his bias..."

sigh...

Anyway...has little to nothing to do with Russia rolling over the idiots in the Ukraine, and even less to do with whether or not I should give a shit if the answer involves risking a single drop of US blood to protect Europe. Fuck Europe...they hate the US military...have all sorts of negative shit to say about us...*right up until* their asses are on the line, and then they suddenly *loves* them some US armaments...

Fuck 'em all. "Isolationism" should be the Word of the Day.

isolationism is national suicide

How so? We were isolationists before, had to get our asses dragged into WWII...and ever since, there has been a growing hatred for the US in the world.

Funny, Thucy, you never had much of a hard on for fighting Bush's wars. Probably were against every conflict ever.....right up until now. Why?

Russia is openly aggressive to a nato member? pray tell which one/s?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y59pDfwWwGw

Imagine this shit going on outside your house.

The thread is for discussion of the immediate military events happening in Ukraine, not about the whole Russia/NATO dispute

Ukraine is not a part of NATO.

Let Ukraine deal with Ukraine...just like Syria's problem is Syria's, right? And if outside intervention is needed, let the European's spill their own fucking blood.

Ukraine isn't part of NATO, no. But Romania is. And Poland. And the Baltic States. ALL of whom are threatened in one way or another by Russia's actions.

Moving away from that perspective, we have a nation crying out for UN peacekeepers to come in. For anyone in the world to help them. This doesn't remind you of Georgia at all? Or Czechoslovakia in the 1930s?

Ok, as krellin said, Ukraine is not part of NATO. Meanwhile Russia has not started measures to annex romaina or poland, so we can calm down on that front.

Ukraine? the place where pro-russia lawmakers get assaulted, in parliament and out? we should stay out of that hell hole. enough of this intervening where we shouldn't be. Meanwhile, i would never compare putin and russia to hitler and nazi germany. Oh, and what happened with georgia? georgia invaded regions that had had russian peacekeepers in for years, russia countered - and now, those regions still are autonomous - huge change. let's stay out, and not get involved - even if ukraine was a savoury country, which it really isn't.

Still waiting for some pro-war liberal to tell me why white European blood is more precious than all the dark-skinned blood around the world, because there's a *lot* of it spilled on a constant basis....and yet their war drums are silent in regards to them.

Thucy the coward ran away from this question...big surprise.

You know, the problem with attempting a course of isolationism is that, at the end of the day, we are involved in the world no matter what we do. Pretending it doesn't exist invites pain down the road. It's amazing to me that isolationism in America still isn't dead, as if the lessons of the last 200 years weren't enough.

Fact of the matter is, we are not self-sufficient, and cannot un-involve ourselves from the international stage. The more we try to, the less credibility we have on that same world stage.

For all your hatred of Obama he is proving to be something of an isolationist, and it's hurting us.

About Bush and Iraq: I was 12 when we invaded. I supported it because I didn't know anything about anything and thought a war sounded interesting. Around 2006 I changed my mind when I saw the evidence that WMDs were not just a mistake but an invented pretext.

But I still support what was done in Libya, and what is being done in CAR, and South Sudan (even if UNMISS is badly fucking up and the UN CAR force won't deploy till fucking September, better than nothing). I still support intervention in Syria as I have since the war began.

War, to my mind, should only be waged to enforce the laws of peace, just as the police force should only use force to protect the public.

Annexation, chemical weapon use, ethnic pogroms - these are all airtight reasons to deploy international intervention. Preferably through the UN to strengthen that lesser evil of institutions, but when the UN's outdated structure fails the international public, it's down to other actors to see that the right thing is done.

Of course, the right thing is very infrequently done. The United States itself breaks international law, or even refuses at times to acknowledge its existence.

Our national disgrace.

I also resent being characterized as pro-war. There is nothing worse than death and violence.

But just as the imprisonment of violent criminals is a tragic but necessary evil, so too is death in a war to enforce peace a necessary evil to avoid even worse and more indiscriminate wars.

If, say, India gassed protestors in Kashmir, or China gassed Lhasa, and cited Syria as precedent, God forbid, where would the world be? The time to draw the line was last year. But it may already be too late for that. Only time can tell if states are emboldened to break that and other laws.

To those who say that states barely follow international law as it is, I say, all the more reason to vigorously enforce it. We have such a dreadfully long way to go, and can only advance one step at a time, as in anything.

I'm also bemused how one week for you I am a bleeding heart pacifist and the next I am a racist war mongerer. If you're going to lampoon me at least come up with a consistent narrative.

<poke....poke poke...>

I just like to watch you dance, Thucy.

<some day you will figure that out>

As for a consistent narrative/lampoon…if you took a consistent stance on anything I might consistently lampoon you. But since you are a moving target, I can mock you in any way I feel and it will apply eventually as you spin around on your merry-go-round.

I dunno dude I have been arguing essentially the same thing re: interventionism since like 2010 or 2011 at the latest

krellin...thuce...can we try to keep it related?

"Still waiting for some pro-war liberal"
Keep looking, krellin. I'm sure one's just around the corner.


Stepping away from krellin's ranting, this is unacceptable behaviour for an acting government. The Easterners have set up an administration in the same manner as occured in Kiev a couple months ago after preparing themselves for two months. The acting government has no moral high ground to use deadly force and could easily spark a nationwide civil war if they did, at the same time throwing even more power to the far-right within their ranks. If any power should intervene, it is Russia (which supposedly already has troops lined along the Eastern border), although for Russia's sake Moscow better beg for UN peacekeepers to arrive quickly. Of course Russian intervention could also be disasterous if the crazy officials in Kiev decide to attack Russian troops or – more likely – Russian intervention is delayed until mass murder has already started.