Ooh. Are we trash talking Breitbart?

BB is the "moral" compass of Amerika.

Brainbomb is indeed the moral compass of America

brainbomb wants to get more comp ass that a mere rican?

Nobody actually buys into anything bb says though. Its just there for entertainment.

Donald Trump buys into what BB says. You bear a heavy responsibility, brainbomb.

russia is behind it alll!!!!

we, liberals, love socialism, and have a multitude of communists in our ranks, but we hate that former communist, and currently socialist nation state, because they helped trump, and they will turn us all into socialists!!!!

I think it is refreshing to hear Trump defend Putin, admitting that a lot of the things the US has done have left yoy with blood on your nation's hands.

That you have to do some not very nice things to get where you are in the world.

Though i would go further, because the kind of neo-liberal policies that Trump appears to stand for were pioneered by the British, and lets just say, millions died under British rule... Comparable to the worst atrocities of the Soviet Union, yet 'Communism' gets a bad name, while 'Capitalism' comes out smelling like roses (or you swallowed the victor's propoganda, hook, line and sinker...)

I recommend you embrace your dark side, it is so much easier to fight an enemy you can see ;)

@fiedler logic: Dems are hypocrites so whatever Trump does is fine regardless of how much it hurts the country.

His view is so narrow, it is a singularity.

@Orathaic, the point of this is that nothing is good in excess. Too much government control and the workers aren't productive. Too little control and the workers are exploited.

The ideal solution is to find a happy medium between the two (Capitalism and Socialism) and make sure this intermediate works for everyone. That is what we in the US are attempting to do now. The Commies get a bad name because of what they did to Germany after WWII, the tens of millions Stalin killed in gulags, and hostile acts by Russia and North Korea(though admittedly this is an outlier).

The US does have it's share of atrocities like the Japanese-American internment camps during WWII, the nuclear bombs in Japan(arguably justifiable), and the existence of Donald Trump. However, these aren't nearly as bad when compared to what communist nations have done, even without the lenses of propaganda.

Stalin was not a true communist. He was a dictator who took over the communist party. Much like Trump, not a true Republican, took over the Republican party. In America, it was important to conflate Stalinism with communism so that the top 1% could continue to get support for capitalism. It's easy to get the masses to hate Stalin; a lot harder to get them to hate better wages for poor people.

"not a true communist."

- OMG the cliches are just priceless here...

Fiedler, how would you describe the tenets of true communism?

@Hauta I may not support Trump, but I also don't appreciate your apparent disdain for capitalism. While pure capitalism is horrible, so is communism and socialism. We don't have any of those and we don't need any of them.

Have any of you lived under communism? I didn't think so.

I have. It was the most benign form of applied communism (Yugoslavia). Still, it was so awful that I'd rather die than go back there.

Not because of gulags or incidental stuff like that, but because communism is designed to stifle freedom.

You can't even begin to imagine the difference between being able to complain about the government's lies (capitalism) and not being able to do that (communism), even if you are powerless in both cases.

Pure capitalism IS horrible but regulated capitalism is best. Regulate it to protect workers and consumers. Not a radical idea.

Zmaj, you didn't live under a pure communism and America is not pure capitalism. As imperfect as America might be it is better than Yugoslavia was. I argue to improve America by passing laws to protect workers. Laws like increased minimum wage, or basic income, etc. I don't argue for huge change but I do recognize that we have a problem.

Hauta, nobody ever lived, is living, or will live in pure communism. It's a myth. And it's such an attractive myth that idiots keep trying even after all that suffering.

Let's not try it then. Let's fix regulated capitalism. Let's also recognize that Putin is bad and that admiration for him is bad too.

I know a fair number of people who have lived under communist rule and they all share Zmaj's sentiments.

The choice is not binary. You like minimum wage? That is contrary to pure capitalism. Also, China has more capitalism now but no more freedom. Don't conflate an economic system with political system.

Hauta, I don't like minimum wage. But you're right, we shouldn't look at capitalism and communism as opposites.

@Zmaj, i was not arguing in favour of communism. I will argue against free market capitalism as one of the greatest evils.

Never mind the millions who died in India under British rule, and the massive number of Irish who died in Ireland, intentionally allowed to die to serve some free market ideas. Millions also died under various communist collective farming programs failures.

Freedom to think and speak is interesting, but hve you ever been poor in a capitalist state? Have you ever had freedom of speeh but felt like you had no boice, like nobody would listen to you? Like your society placed you below the dogs and cat of the wealthy?

Because there are fucked up things in every system. And in the moderate socialist utopias of Europe you have members of the unemployed classes, police discrimination, failed and flawed educational systems, and freedom of the press to spout discriminatory propoganda about 'entitlements'.

I still prefer this system to the wacky libertarian dream of Americans - 'freedom' to he gunned down on any street, to starve, (nevermind the obesity crisis - driven by free market tendancies and corporate power).

Yes Mitomon, i see Social Democracy as the middle ground between Communism and Capitalism, and i see its short-comings. I don't know what you think Socialism is, but my understanding is the Universal Health Care, Free Public Education, and guarenteed minimum incomes are all socialist policies. (Which the US desperately needs).

Lets be clear, on our terminology please, Communism generally refers to Marxism-Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism, and other Communist regimes in North Korea, Cambodia, and Vietnam.

Capitalism generally refers to free markets, privatised assets (like train lines, schools, prisons, and hospitals).

And the middle ground is what i would call Socialism. Where luxury goods are provided by private enterprise (iphones, cars, fancy clothes) and necessities are probided by the state (education, health care, roads etc).

Zmja, what kind of system then do you prefer? And do you think this freedom you mention is the ultimate good for all?

"Never mind the millions who died in India under British rule"

Minding this for a moment--is there a reason to attribute this to capitalism over colonialism?

Capitalism drove the colonies. Lending money to places to build railways, then taking over their governments to ensure the loans were paid back (and the value extracted from the economy regardless of the cost). The US had their own continent to expot and colonise, so didn't get into external colonies until much later (Guam, Hawaii and Puerto Rico?) And Russia was in an almost identical position to the US in the 19th Century, but how much did the British Empire expand between 1801 and 1901?

Specifically looking at Ireland, many wars, massacres, rebellions, and colonisers happened between ~1169 and 1921, but it was capitalistic policies in the 1840 which killed millions in the great famine (at least 1 million died of starvation, out of a population of 8 million, while the British exported food).

That wasn't so much for money but for power @orothaic. That was imperialism and the US did do a bit of it later on like you said. You forgot the war with Spain to take the Philippines.

Also, lets be clear, like 'pure communism' there has never been a 'Pure (free market) Capitalist' state. It has always been a 'State Capitalism' - regulated, with state investment and monopolies in certain areas - well maybe the Dutch East Indies and British East India companies operated about as 'Pure Capitalist' as you can get - but you will not find me celebrating these examples.

*Money* drove the colonies, *greed* drove the colonies, but...I guess what I'm not getting here is how a hostile takeover of someone's government is a *capitalist* enterprise.