Thats a smart move, and if you look to the French side?

Never attack multiple countries in 1901.

I tend to consider various options, mull it over for a while, and then always do the same thing.
Namely: Attack Austria by going for Tyrolia. Rome to Venice, and then head for the usual Tunis build.

I prefer to ride the Lepanto until Turkey is neutralized or Austria grows too big to ignore.

And what does Lepanto mean?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepanto_opening

Convoying to Turkey basically

Sounds good, thanks, I will try that.

the lepanto blows

What do you suggest then?

i like bohemian crusher

The early attacks on Austria work well if Russia and Turkey are fighting. This is, however, quite a big if.

The lepanto is a safe option even with very limited support, which is largely why it's so popular. Conversely, hitting France can be incredibly powerful, but you really need support of both England and Germany to make it work.

who says you have to attack austia with the crusher

Attacking Germany isnt useful in my opionion, the sc is seperated from you and you probably lost austrias trust. I go with the Lepanto i think. Its more safe.

you should do what youre comfortable with

The key to playing Italy well in the early going is realizing that nobody can attack you. You have to leverage this to your advantage. A Lepanto is a good option, but only if Austria is actively working with you. If Austria is just hanging you out to dry, forget him and attack (e.g. with Lando's suggestion like a convoy to Greece). If you don't have anything to do with the army in Venice, go bother France in Piedmont.

Basically, you need to make real progress before the "mid game" (usually when the first power is knocked out). Italy is unique in that often the best way for Italy to do so is to slow everyone down rather than speed themselves up.

I still consider myself inexperienced at this game, but on this site and in Face to face I've gone for the Lepanto pretty much every time.
Italy is possibly my favourite country to play, it has a bad rep for being a difficult country, but I've had okay results with it in my games so far. So that being said, if in doubt Lepanto. It's solid.

Does Lepanto ever actually work for anyone ever?

Most overrated and uncreative strategy around.

It works all the time. I mean, you can't always just go to EMS over and over, and sometimes it isn't there. But it is by far Italy's best winning strategy. Turkish centres are easy to hold, and there is plenty of places to go once it's done. Going after France there is three centres nearby but you can't get much more in that direction so forces are often split. Germany is a similar issue but worse. And going after Austroa has merits, but it is far more dangerous than the Lepanto, where your only real risk is France.

I mean, I understand attacking Turkey. I'm fully comfortable doing that. It's just that no Turkey's going to be caught off-guard by it at this point. Just planning to go in there to convoy is stupid, and I'm not sure I've ever actually seen it work.

As Italy, nobody wants to be bothered with you. Even when you set up Lepantos with Austria, they're really just trying to keep you out of the way for a little while. As a result, Italy gets left behind and eventually taken out by whoever's ruling the med. You gotta be aggressive to get anywhere.

My favorite tactic is to move Ven-Pie and Rom-Ven in the Spring. In the fall, you stab Austria and/or drag one of France's units out Spain or Burgundy.

Lepantos are doable if Austria seems too sharp to fall for a stab, but you can't let him neglect you or get too far ahead.

It works if Turkey bounces the Black Sea in S01 and Austria proactively helps Italy and outguesses Turkey. It's not a surefire plan but it's relatively reliable, no less so than attacking Austria or France.

Outside of Gunboat, I've played three complete games as Italy. Two were Full Press, and one was Public Press. Here are my experiences.

1. gameID=67307: "Get Down"

This was my first game as Italy, and among my first Diplomacy games in general. During the course of the game, I ended up in a very tight-knit alliance with Austria. We essentially took on a Juggernaut together while France and Germany were busy fighting England, and through much coordination we came out on top. We then took on EG the same way. The alliance was sufficiently fulfilling that we agreed to a 2-Way and actually saw it through. It remains one of the few games I've played where the possibility of a solo was outweighed by the quality of an alliance.

What I learned most from this game was that, when Italy and Austria actually get along and can trust each other, they are a very potent pairing. Especially when Italy focuses on fleets and Austria on armies (the Austrian fleet was destroyed early on).

2. gameID=85261: "Sargemarcher's Public Press Invitational"

This game. Oh man, this game. 21 years of Public Press mayhem. We more or less all hated each other by the end of this game, with Russia deeming me the most obnoxious Diplomacy player on the site. Good times.

But yeah, I soloed this game. An interesting challenge, essentially convincing [enough of] the entire board to let you win in plain sight, but I pulled it off. How? Well, I started by turning public opinion against the "Wicked Witches" of England and Turkey, making a strong alliance with Russia and Austria to take out Turkey while FG tried to beat up England.

England survived by virtue of a Western Triple forming to take on the AIR Alliance, but Turkey was already toast and we proved more than a match for the WT. The combined Western powers only had 7 SCs left when Russia stabbed Austria and I in a solo bid. I rallied everyone against Russia, and we crippled them before infighting resumed once more.

I took advantage of the fact that most of the players really hated each other by this point, and the Western powers in particular had fantastically poor relations. I convinced them to cut out England, and following that made a solo bid myself. I eventually succeeded, mostly thanks to the fact that I was continuously able to put the remaining powers at odds.

This was another game where I had a strong alliance with Austria, and while he did make every effort to stop the solo at the end, we still got along better than most of the other players. My solo, interestingly enough, did not include a single Austrian Home Center. Nor did it include any of Austria's common neutrals (Serbia, Greece, Rumania). Rather than stab Austria, I more or less just kept stabbing other powers until Austria felt compelled to do something about it. I then mostly just fended him off while diving into the cluster&*#$ that was Western Europe.

3. gameID=94180: "Triathlon Full Press"

Austria and I didn't get along so well this game, so I killed him. He was out in 1902.

Predictably, this resulted in me going head-to-head with a Juggernaut immediately afterward. Things looked bad, but I held together long enough for the West to get their act together (which took a while). The alliance was effective enough to get Turkey to stab Russia, at least, and the focus from then on was thwarting Turkey's solo ambitions. This was successful, and resulted in an uncertain enough balance of power that we agreed to a 5-Way.

Jeez, Sarg's PP game was simultaneously terrible and amazing. Kinda wish Austria had been less of an idiot though. We were telling him for years what was happening and he ignored it.

uclabb as usual hits all the high points succinctly and accurately. Italy is the only power in the game that WILL NOT be attacked to start. It is the most defensible position in the game to start: nearly as difficult to assault as France or Turkey, but without any unprovided diplomatic impetus to do so. You have to really screw the pooch to get taken out first as Italy.

Leverage that as much as possible. You have the luxury of early game invincibility, which means you should use that as a fallback and be unafraid to play very aggressively from the outset. It's not easy to launch a full-scale invasion because of the tenuous balance of power in the southeast and your subpar location, but you have to make friends and do it anyway. Get to 5-6 centers and stay on top of any diplomatic developments.

Maybe I play with crap players but I've been blitzed by Austria to begin the game as Italy several times. Furthermore, as Austria I'm always tempted to do the same. Having Venice as Austria adds much needed strategic depth.

I don't get why everyone claims Italy is invulnerable.

As for Lepanto, Turkey usually sees it coming a mile away and it only works if you trust Austria, which I never do.

Can you link a game where Austria immediately went for Italy? I've only seen it once and it worked pretty well but that was when Russia also moved immediately on Turkey, and I wouldn't trust anyone so much as to pull that in S01.

Really, the only time I saw Austria going for Italy early, Italy notably moved A Rom - Nap, because he was a moron.
I've personally never been able to trust both Turkey and Russia that early as Austria, and I tend to focus on getting two builds, which going for Venice doesn't really do much for in my experience. Generally, if Turkey and Russia are both nice to you, they've decided that they'll work together to dismantle you before getting in a deathmatch. Or they really hate each other. You'll find out by 1902, which is when I usually end up worrying about Italy.

Also, Italy will survive and annoy you for the rest of the game, if you only take Venice. Inviting France in doesn't seem like a great idea, and Italy has a strong defensive line even without Venice, so you'll be dead by the time you break through completely.

Austria and Italy fighting is bad for both, through if Italy is very clever, he can probably do well out of it, while if Austria is clever, he gets to spend resources somewhere for a while for little appreciable gain.

In this game, I managed to take nap (as Austria) in 1902 and owned ven and rom at the end of 1904. Julien was playing Italy too, so it wasn't like I did it to some beginner.

Of course, I didn't go picking the fight -- I just finished what Italy started.

gameID=122933

Once when I didn't know what I was doing yet, I opened tri-adr, ven-tyr, bud-tri as Austria. I got ven, but I didn't last too long.

Funny game. France seems to have been the catalyst for this. Also, a completely submissive Turkey, it seems. You were very lucky. A lot of Turkish players would have decided they like the like of Rom, and want all the Balkans.

Most Turkish players would have railed on you leaving that side open like that.

Yeah, that Turkey was never playing for anything more than a draw in that game.

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=75623#gamePanel

This is an example of Austria doing a blatantly anti-Italy move an '01 followed by an all-out attack. Seen other games where Austria does it in '02 and '03. I'll link them if you need them.

Oh yeah, Turkey in that game. Brutal.

Sure, if Austria knows that Turkey is going to NMR then it's a viable plan. Otherwise, you've really got to hope that Russia and Turkey don't get their shit together and just wipe Austria clear out.

Putin, you're leaving out the part where you opened aggressively against Austria from the beginning. That move to Tyrolia in S01 looks really defensive in light of this. I don't see that as an example of Austria opening/playing offensively against Italy, just responding rather dramatically to a hostile neighbor.

Maybe a slight amendment - Italy is only vulnerable if:
- You pick a fight and get pushed back really quickly; this happens sometimes, and the solution is simply not to get pushed back. Italy's position is easily defended against a single target, so even if your offensive fails, it should rarely result in actually getting pushed back and losing centers, as long as your diplomacy with your other neighbors is good. In the example here, Italy doomed itself by not picking up a 1901 build. Grabbing Tunis would have allowed, at a minimum, for building a second fleet and blockading Adriatic and Ionian; and while the offensive wouldn't have succeeded without outside interference (which goes back to the previous advice: find friends and make a joint attack on someone), at least Austria wouldn't have been able to advance, either.
- You leave yourself open. This is typically what happens when Austria makes a 1902 play for Venice, and is why I really dislike the Lepanto opening. Still, I feel like that's advice for any country, and not anything particular to Italy. The usual caveats apply.
- Something really bizarre happens, like a Russian or Turkish CD. Fundamentally imbalancing situations don't really make for good policy discussion, but yes, in the event that something like a CD or egregiously poor play occurs (I'm talking Turkey disbanding/no-building in 1901, losing the Black Sea poor), you can toss this out of the window.

In MOST cases, Italy is essentially invulnerable, because the only powers who can launch a real attack on it early (France and Austria) are too preoccupied to do so.

Lepanto's a dog.

I agree with the *be patient* advice.

I've developed a strategy that I feel is very workable, but it is only likely to get any traction in higher level games, which makes it comparatively pointless on this site (no offense).

Italy basically needs to convoy an army to Greece in Fall 1902.

Sound crazy? It actually makes quite a bit of sense for Germany, France, Austria, Turkey *and* Russia for this to happen. After all, none of those particular powers truly want Italy to truly flop too early in the game. It's the sign of a mature player that they will want most of their neighbors to come out of the opening in decent position, even if they manage to wrangle the diplomatic tensions in their own favor. Boxing Italy out of Greece typically won't work in a skilled player's favor.

Another point, is to consider opening to Piedmont opening season. While a noobish France will protest very loudly at this, a veteran will recognize this as a defensive opening. While Italy probably prefers that France get a center (or two) during opening season, they don't want France to get two (or worse, three) centers too easily.

All of this advice tends to pertain to optimal conditions. Games are rarely, if ever, under optimal conditions.

Then would it not be safer to say you should adjust based on the flow of the game? You already said there was stuff you "never do" - trusting Austria in particular - which seems to contradict. I don't understand the desire to completely rule out a possibility in any game because, if you're saying that you should adjust in-game, I agree entirely. Even if you don't like to do something, you can use everything as a mechanism to affect the game in such a way that it creates your optimal conditions.

Italy, more then almost anybody, really depends on your environment. More then almost any country, he's really an "it depends" kind of country to play.

If you have a good bond with Austria and Germany then maybe going for France makes sense, but know that's going to be a slow go so you really need to be sure you're working with some guys that will look out for your interest going forward. Attacking Turkey is a pain since it pulls you far from home but score a good relationship with Russia and there could be good logic in taking out Turkey and engulfing Austria. Attacking Austria also has it's merits but you need to really know who your friends are because if you kill Austria while there's a juggernaut present all you're doing is inviting them to your doorstep faster.

My general advice playing as Italy is not to make any moves until you have a plan well worked out. Everybody is dying to get Italy to help them since he can really sway the board one way and nobody really targets him from the start so don't be afraid to hold off and really pick your opportunity if one isn't apparent right out the gate.

Yeah, adjust to the flow of the game. But you need to pick a strategy to start with. The 'wait & see' approach ensures that Italy is stuck in 4 SC world with no hope for expansion. Attacking France is too difficult early on. Attacking Turkey requires Austria cooperation, takes a while to develop, and you end up helping Austria control the Balkans in the process. The only real option for hapless Italy is to neutralize Austria.

If a CPA forms, France is not a difficult target at all. It's best when England bites on it too but it's not entirely necessary.

Attacking Austria with no preparation for what happens next is playing with fire. If you're planning to attack Austria you better be sure you're able to ally with one of Turkey or Russia once Austria is gone. If you're attacking Austria chances are he'll be first out while the west is still getting settled leaving you potentially alone to take on a juggernaut and potentially get sniped at by France should he want to get a piece before your dead. It's not the best idea to set momentum of taking out the middle guys if you're a middle guy, you're much better trying to join a fight against the bigger and potentially more dangerous corner guys.

Not when that just enables the growth of bigger and badder middle guys, which the Lepanto (if seen through to completion) does, quite a lot. And considering the high growth potential, for both parties, of a Russian/Italian alliance, finding an ally shouldn't be too hard.

A lot of Italian players rightfully recognize that taking out Austria just to allow Turkey to become too powerful to contain is a poor strategy, but fail to recognize that taking out Turkey just to allow Austria to become too powerful to contain is also a poor strategy. No matter whether you make Austria or Turkey the initial target, you have to be a more viable ally to Russia or the other of A/T in order to survive it. I tend to think that taking out Austria makes you a more viable ally, due to having more supply centers, than taking out Turkey.

Sure Lepanto is fine, not my personal first choice but if you've got something going with a CPA or subtle R/I alliance then it's great. I'd rather have a strong Austria then Turkey because with Austria you've got options of either forming a CPA and running with it or selling either Russia or Germany on the notion he's too a big fat threat that needs to be dealt with. A strong Turkey is a pain to deal with and more times then not Russia just decides to work with him over Italy since it's just allows him to fully focus westward. Austria on the other hand is a easier for Russia to feed off of.