Seems like a good idea...any more ideas?

Don't get stalemated in the Western Med.....4 fleets should do it, 5 would be a luxury and convoy your armies to Italy so you can have a two-pronged attack on the Rheinlands

Yeah, just don't build as many fleets as you instinctually want to. They get bottlenecked. It also takes a lot of armies to deal with Austria/italy/Russia whichever combo is agressing you.

Keep in mind that Turkey doesn't need to move any further than the Western Med to solo. Build too many fleets and you're doing so at the expense of armies that you need a lot more. You only need a few fleets to hold the stalemate in the Med.

You need Turkey, Balkans, Austria, Italy, Tunis, Russia minus StP, and just one more.

Munich is usually your best bet, but if you have a chance to grab Berlin, Spain or Marseilles, then go for it, perhaps at the expense of putting off closer conquests until later. Berlin and Marseilles are particularly good because they are a little easier to hold. Sometimes StP is dangled out there, and it might bump you up enough to win, but it's impossible for Turkey to hold over a long period of time.

Thanks for the suggestions...however, certain scenarios can arise when Turkey finds that both Russia and Austria are out to get Turkey. Let's assume that Russia has A Romania, A Sevastopol and F BLA in the region, while Austria has F Venice, A Serbia, F Trieste, A Vienna and A Budapest. You, as Turkey, have A Bulgaria and F Greece... how would you cope with the threat?

Um... How did russia get in the black sea?

I'd probably build since you have two units and five centers.

2ndWhiteline seems to have a point.

sorry about that, you have F Greece, F Smyrna, A Constantinople, A Bulgaria and F Ankara...now what would you do

Is this gunboat? Full press? How are your relations with both countries? What about Italy - has he only lost Venice? Does he occupy the Ionian or Adriatic? Is Russia being attacked by England or Germany? Is Austria facing a threat from Germany? What about France - is he pushing into the Med? How did Austria take Venice - does he have an army in Tyrolia? Why did he build a second fleet while Italy is still at least three centers strong with two likely fleets? Why did Turkey hold fleet Ankara?

Stab Russia in the spring of 1901. Force him to disband his fleet or at least retreat to Sevastopol. You get Sevastopol soon after with an army build in Ankara/Smyrna, plus there is no chance of losing the Black Sea. Just watch Italy. If you don't stab Russia then and he gains power, you've got no shot.

Really that applies in gunboat and full press (in full press you can hook up with Austria) but that's the only way I can do anything with Turkey in gunboats.

If that's the only way you can succeed as Turkey, you're not a very good player. No offense, but Turkey is usually regarded as one of the strongest countries on the board, especially if he works with Russia in the early game. You don't even need to communicate that in gunboat, since it's usually implied with basic opening moves.

Let me give you a full picture of where everyone's units are...

(The phase is Spring 1902, before everyone move)

England:
F BAR
A Norway
F London
F NTH

France:
F Spain
A Portugal
A Brest
A Paris
A Burgundy

Germany:
F Holland
A Ruhr
A Munich
A Denmark
F Kiel

Italy:
A Tunis
F Ionian
A Apulia

Austria:
F Venice
A Tyrolia
A Serbia
A Budapest
A Vienna

Russia:
F Sweden
A Rumania
F BLA
A Sevastopol
A St. Petersburg
A Warsaw

Turkey:
A Greece
A Bulgaria
F Constantinople
F Smyrna
A Ankara

Now what would you do?

I'd probably ask the forum.

I'd ask if it was an ongoing game.

It's a hypothetical situation...how would you respond as Turkey? Russia ? Italy?

And, it isn't an ongoing game, but it's a good hypothetical situation. Also assume that it's gunboat.

I think it's reasonable to assume that Russia will lose St. Pete. That will hopefully alleviate some pressure in the south, unless the Russian player is experienced enough to realize that fighting to retake St. Pete is a lost cause. Russia may move to Moscow to give support to that center, otherwise, his logical next move is to support Sev to Armenia and move Warsaw to Livonia/Moscow. Luckily, you probably only have Russia to deal with, since Austria has foolishly put a fleet in Venice and roadblocked himself from making any more progress into Italy. You can probably count on Italy moving the Ionian fleet to either Apulia or the Adriatic and the army to Rome. Austria will likely want to cover Trieste to ensure adequate support on Venice, so it may be a good opportunity to take a shot at Serbia from Greece with support from Bulgaria. Having the second fleet in Smyrna makes things difficult, since you can't really maneuver it easily into a position to take the Black Sea. Your best bet is to probably count on Russia supporting the move to Armenia with BLA and using that opportunity to move Smy to AEG and Con to Smy, which provides support to Ankara while letting you slip the second fleet into Con where it will be of more use.

I think there are two different questions in this thread. One is how to get out of the box that Turkey's initially contained in, and get into a strong midgame position, while the other is how to reach 18. The second one is, I think, the more central question, because it relates to one of the most important skills in Diplomacy, taking a board and thinking about what happens when it shakes out, who's going to end up where in several years.

Basically, from the moment that it's clear Turkey is going to be growing, there should be one thought foremost in your mind: you cannot win without, at a minimum, at least one of St. Petersburg (which you cannot hold long-term), Munich (which you can), Berlin (which you can but either with Munich or Prussia and Livonia), and Marseilles (which you can). For many countries, you can push on all fronts, hoping to succeed on one. For Turkey, because of the long lines of resupply combined with the tactical ease of assembling a multi-national line against you, even in gunboat, you can't -- you have to pick where you're trying to cross, commit to it early, and pick right.

As an example of what I mean, take a look at gameID=87888. As early as Fall 1906, I needed to think seriously about which I was aiming for, and concluded that France might get much of Italy, so that I was basically racing for Scandinavia or Munich. In 1907, at that point I had to basically make the decision and commit, because if I waited it was a clear EFT three-way draw. My conclusion was that my only chance to win was to lose ground against France and aim for Munich/Berlin, letting the tactics be messy, because the alternative was dead drawn. I did get Munich/Berlin, the tactics did get incredibly messy, but it was the only play that wasn't dead drawn, and ended up a very complicated, difficult win that was actually complex but forced about six years before it ended (it would have actually been easier without the French NMR that let him retreat into my rear, and at one point it was actually a second-order virtual win, if I analyzed it correctly).

Basically, the point is that as Turkey, you have to make your decision earlier than everybody else about where you're getting across the line, commit to it, and get it right.

It's not at all hard to figure out what game whaskell is referring to. A quick search of ongoing live games reveals this: gameID=95757

The move in question is S1903 and it doesn't look suspicious at all.

-1 whaskell for clearly discussing an ongoing game...won't go as far as to say it was a cheating accusation though.

Sorry Wrong thread

Juggernaught. Let Russia have the Black Sea in Spring 01 by moving Smyrna to Constantinople. Hopefully you aren't playing with a brain dead Russian.

Thanks for the suggestions, they've helped a lot.