Back up . . . is it always irrational to throw the game?

Good point peterwiggin

Also, rational does not always equal tactically and strategically sound!

A combination of short term tactics. Long term strategy, and the application of awesome negotiations.

Avoid being the first power to appear as a threat unless you are 100% sure you can take the win a couple turns after being a large power.

I think try not to be the leader. Maybe the ally of the leader. Then when it looks like he is ready to solo, turn the tables on him with the other powers as your new allies. For the final push promise a survive to one or two small powers in return for helping you win

@peterwiggin, beside meta-gaming reasons, what could be a rational reason for losing all your points on purpose?

The possibility of throwing a game is a valid tactic. Powers that were going to attack you might now support you in order to stop another power from picking up an easy win.

There comes a point when it's fairly obvious that your points are lost anyways. Take a look at this game: gameID=38846
As England, I fought France and Germany from the very first turn. I actually outlived Germany somehow (a lot of Russian assistance), and eventually knew that my only shot at a share of the draw was to put the Russians very close to a solo while making myself an essential part of the line against him. Obviously, I didn't quite succeed in this one, in large part because I turned against Russia too early (see the bit I said about rational != tactically correct), but I would argue that, as it became clearer and clearer that France intended to eliminate me, giving the game to Russia became less and less irrational (or at least, no more irrational than any other course of action).

Also, the whole point of negotiations is to make other players play somewhat irrationally! The best diplomats will have you helping them to a win while thinking that you're playing perfectly rationally.

WTA, PPSC, or FTF, the way you solo in diplomacy is by making mistakes that are less costly, less often than your opponents. It is strategy mixed with tactics mixed with negotiation, and a sprinkle of luck ;)

I think the easiest way to solo in wta is to have a strong trustfull 2 way alliance and make a succesful stab to your faithfull ally when he least expects it and when he ll not be able to fight against you (for example when both have about 12 scs).

There are times when throwing a WTA game makes sense: I've done it because an F/G was just taking out my Turkey, and Germany was clearly on top, but France refused to even *acknowledge* most of my press. I threatened to throw the game if he didn't swap sides, he refused, and so I let Germany win, rather than be taken out more slowly by a two-way alliance. In my view I played soundly, and it was France who made mistakes (not wanting to stab his ally because I was forcing his hand in an 'unfair' way)

TGM I think that is completely valid, and I would have done the same. Did you cop some flak for it?

I think it is all about using powers that are about to die as "flex" powers and either getting them to be your forward front or even just passing them over to get past stalemate lines early. A fairly decent example of that is this game, which is the best live game I have ever played:

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=46844#gamePanel

There was a big row in the forum, but basically everyone apart from France thought it was fine.

(Germany thought that I'd played perfectly :P)

>You are posting too frequently, please slow down.
No I'm not

You had to put that up there uclabb haha. You used and abused me that whole game haha. It was a great game though

Then again, I dragged around austria quite a bit, and France coming back to life didn't help either -_-

@goldfinger:

I got you second place! I thought we made a great team. :)

The key is trick people basically. Lol.

what i have found to work very well is use your diplomatic skills of negotiation early on and make one of your allys put to much trust in you and then blamo! you got yourself a good position for the solo...i have a game i played a little while ago where i did just that (i was turkey, russia and austria both thought i was their ally and going for italy) posting game link in a second when i find it.

gameID=50846
(yes i know this isnt a WTA game but its exactly what i would have done even if it was WTA so i figured i would share it)

"Germany thought that I'd played perfectly :P"

You did play perfectly. ;)

maltizok: as you run into better players, that won't work so well. You make one of your allies put trust in you, and blammo! You get 15 SCs, all the other players coordinate against you, and you end up with a 4-way draw.

In order to get a solo against good players, you need to be try and slip the solo by. That's one thing about live games--when people have a day or two to look at the map, it's harder to slip past them.

i havent soloed a whole lot of times but i think that the key (in either gunboat or press) is to get across stalemate lines before the other powers really view you as a threat to solo. it is always feasible to clean up the remaining centres on your side of the line later.

maltizok -- dude, that would never work with competent players. lol. you stabbed Austria and took Serbia after he gave you basically everything from Russia and he still blitzed into Germany? gross incompetence ;>_>

and everyone kinda sorta didn't give a fuck about your solo apparently

i think you need some disarray on the other side of the board when making the jump from a mid size power to a solo threat. if you're england, for example, and you stab your ally (fra or ger) while italy is locked up in the balkins, it's very difficult for him to disengage without losing centers to try and block off the med.

yeah thats a good point, trip. but still, using your example, if you are, say, a 7 or 8 centre england with no close threats, i think its more important (in terms of reaching a solo) to focus on marseilles/tunis or warsaw/moscow. because you will need one of those pairs of centes to solo. On the other hand, you can leave centres like Brest or Berlin or Paris because you know you can always pick those up near the end of the game.

i am mainly used to wta gunboats though, so there might be a different recipe for how to solo in wta press games. of course, in the later stages of setting up stalemate lines and stopping solos, i feel like a high quality wta gunboat is pretty much identical to a high quality wta press.

i agree with you, frank. having the centers needed to take the win behind your line is an excellent strategy, but you still need some disarray on the other side to accomplish that.

in almost all of my wins that weren't hand fed by another player, or achieved on a last turn stab, there's always been a failure to coordinate by the powers on the other side of the board. whether it happens becuase of my diplomacy, bad play or just dumb luck, it does seem to be a constant.

@president eden
thats why i said my diplomatic skills have been getting better, i convinced both austria and russia i was their ally, stabbed them both and made the arguement that i was attacking the other country so they let the first one slide (i told austria i messed up my move) then since i convinved him that i was still his ally i took advantage of that. #1 rule in WTA, never trust an ally to much =)

also after the big stab where i got 4 of austria's SC france saw my solo coming and told everybody to unite and turn on me or i would get the solo, they didnt listen to him till i was at about 14sc so by then it my solo was inevitable. they nearly had a stalemate line in place but i convinved germany id let them survive and get my last sc from someone else if they attacked france or england, that worked and i also found an opening into spain at the same time so i got to 19sc for the win haha