I agree with cgwhite

watch out if the english channel is occupied in spring, and most importantly, watch out if england and/or france are pissed off because it is

if that doesn't happen, you might consider russia as the only ally that you have left

except maybe for italy
if italy makes clear signs of going against france, you might be able to go without russian help

No comment... ; )

The only time I'd let it happen is if Turkey and Austria had got themselves in a position to stop Russia gaining a centre in the south, especially if Moscow went south and Russia is still unlikely to get a centre. If so, let Russia have the build or you might be facing A-T before things are wrapped up in the West.

It's rare that E-F openings will let on that they're in cahoots since there're more reasonable explanations for their most frequent openings, so really it's diplomacy that'll let you know their plans.

I never mind giving it to him, or having it as Russia. Maybe that explains my Eastern troubles then

Russia must never ever be allowed to take Swe in the first year. Rue and Ger can work together in Scan after, but a Russia that enters 1902 with two builds is almost unstoppable. A confident Russia should understand that and agree the bounce.

I agree. Never, ever let Russia have it. It is madness, even if Germany is in trouble. It almost hands the Russian player a win, unless they're complete idiots.

I think the A-T is more important that E/F in the decision here. Don't let him have it unless Austria goes to Gal and Rum while Turkey goes to Bla and Arm. Because you need Russia to hold the line while you sort your own business out. Its never really about extracting anything, unless you want him to open north or something like that. But that doesn't mean you should follow through.

saying that russia will automaticaly win just because it gets an early extra build is a bit pushing it

Although to be fair, Russias can sometimes have three build first years by bulldozing Austria and that momentum is often difficult to stop, especially since they can engage is several different theatres.

Akroma +1

I say give Russia Sweden, a nice 7 or 8 SC Russia makes the perfect leader to attack and having Russia in Sweden puts pressure on England.

I say never have only one way of doing things. Predictability is death. And remember, reliability <> predictability.

What TMG said - there's no rule - and if you always block RUS you risk having a default enemy before the game started :)

Not to mention most times when RUS does not get SWE this results in ENG gaining control of all of Scandinavia - and then you (GER) is next.

I would normally let RUS in SWE unless there's been a move in the Channel first turn - a matter of balance.

@TheMasterGamer: yes, if Russia know you he's not getting Sweden then he could always order F GoB - Bal and / or England might convoy to Denmark.

Or unless RUS is in Galicia.

it's quite insightful to see different people's answers to this. i think it just depends on the situation. the best price is probably seeing russia do exactly the things you want her or him to do.

Thinking about it, and reviewing some of my past games as Germany, I have let Russia take Sweden before, which blows my 'never' idea out of the water!

Essentially, I'd have to take it on the player concerned. If they can be trusted, you have a good working relationship etc, then you could gain out of it by going after England and using Russia's fleet or two as supports. It certainly is a possibility.

My rules for whether to let Russia in are:
Has Russia played something insanely anti German with War. In which case "What are you waiting for? Bounce him out!"
Has Russia gone anti-austrian? If so, did you promise anything along the lines of this to either Russia or Austria? If both then the bounce is necessary to maintain respect.
Has Russia gone into a long war with Turkey? I wouldn't bounce here as Russia will simply be put on lookout for you.

Did you give him Swe?

However, by skipping kie to den and going to kie to hol allows a high percentage chance of germany gettin all 3 SCs on its border in 1st year.

However, that play would automatically allow Russia swe. But, a good eastern buddy with alliance against england will allow germany to mop the floor with both france and england.

The three center build is the worst thing that can happen to Germany.
Everyone will be looking at you wrong, and soon enough you'll be screwed by every player who wants a piece.

never say always or never in dip ;)

my usual line with Russia is - dont move to gal. if you do, I might bounce you. the last thing you really want as G is a strong RT emerging in 01... so you need to help prop up Austria... thats usually my line when I'm G.

but each game is different.

I always say never give it to Russia. I also always say never listen to Babak :P

Only if they need it to keep the Turkish genie in the bottle.

no germany ever gave me sweden

I really tend to disagree strongly with the approach here on Sweden in 01 for Russia. There are so many things that SHOULD go into the reasoning that it is really hard to make sense of it within this forum.

Amongst the earliest things is that the limitation on the decision forced upon GERMANY... think about it, if you take the dogma of no Sweden for Russia then you are forcing Germany to move Kiel to Denmark in Spring -01 when there can be other alternatives such as the very logical Kiel-Holland given a certain set of personalities and goals. Going elsewhere (Helgo or Baltic) is rare but certain constructs can be made for them.

There are several discussions in the /zine histories on the issue of Sweden in 1901 that can be found on the Pouch as well as in some intense articles on the play of Germany, I would just caution you to look at it in a manner of what needs to be going on for that decision to be made in the negative or the positive.

So what price Sweden.... $1.57 seems reasonable depending on the value of the Euro.

alamothe:

http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=2558

$1.57, I could buy Iceland as well for that!

I'm with Edi on this one. Though $1.57 is a bit low, round it up to an even $2.

BUMP. I want to learn how to play Germany better. Ahem.

My experience is that this can be a good play, especially if you can restrict Russia to no builds. It does need commitment from A/T for that to be the case.

At the same time, all it does is annoy the Russians if they do have some success, and it may be worth allowing them in with conditions. It's often an isoolated unit in 02, and can be readily dealt with either in conjunction with england, or by moving Kie-Den, & Den-Baltic (or Skag), especially if the Russians are concentrating on the south

Yes, it annoys the Russians, gets them to ally with England, then you face a two pronged attack :s Not a good idea!