I AGREE.... No need.

How on earth can you?

Communicate as much as you will/can - If you ask for personal or contact information from someone, don't be surprised if they say no

figle can i have your personal information

I am a public school teacher and would like to give some advise on the request of personal information through this site. Because there are minors that play this site asking for personal information, especially contact information, should be strongly discouraged. Indeed, it should be made grounds for banning. The system of communication that exists in more than adequate for the enjoyable play of the game. I have never felt the need for another form of communication within the game. Older players need to evolve and no excuses should be made - I am 50 years old. This is a very serious matter and should be discussed and dealt with responsibly. I would not accuse any current member of this game of any malevolent intent. However, this site is easily accessible to anyone and could be a vehicle for predation. Readers of this thread need to remember the problems that have been faced by Myspace and Facebook in dealing with personal information of minors. There would then be real legal consequences for the operator of this site, and could risk the existence of the site, if an event were to occur through the communication of information by this site. In my job I have to be ever cautious of how I interact and communicate with my students even though I would never do anything to violate my profession and personal ethical/moral code. I have to be mindful of appearances and also the possibility of false accusation. This is the way the world works. If you want to promote the live play of this game then you will have to play by the same rules everyone who deals with minors ( from scout leaders, coaches, teachers and youth ministers) have to deal with. These rules are there to protect children as well as the adults that interact with them. Communication must be open to revue and face to face contact must not be private - but in public. The communication logs within the game could be made public in the event it is needed to validate what communications transpired. It would be wise for any adult (or any other player) on this site to communicate with other players strictly through the email system provided. If you would like players to be aware of events in your area this should be done as a public announcement - my recommendation again is to evolve and have a web site. Many of the folks that post to this forum on this site have no experience with these issues - it is clear from the threads that have developed. There is an old expression about STDs being forever. I have worked in Information Technology for a number of years as an administrator and it is equally true about any form of electronic communication - it can last forever. This forum is public in many ways those folks responsible for the site need to recognize this. I can understand the feelings behind the pummeling of a certain member of late. I am not sure that the threads separated the personal resentment toward the member form the real point behind the thread. I really don't want to have a philosophical argument with anyone about how the world should be, or how everyone else is so stupid. Let's talk about how Kestasjk can protect himself from a credible threat and preserve this site.

Just say no was a dismal response to a real problem.

just say no is the perfect response to this culture of fear and scaremongering we live in

The problem is people who try to shut down the rights of others to communicate the best way they know how in a game of communication. You say you are protecting children. Well, this is a mature game where we using mature lanuage and concepts. The four letter words fly all the time. Is that going to be your next target? In that case, I say Kestas should add a "nonone under 18" clause to the signup and be done with it. I mean, what the fuck! I'm not curbing my ability to play the game or express myself because there might be some 13 year old off in the corner fucking up the works. They don't play well most of the time anyhow and they don't last long enough to become a predators target. Finally, how would a predator know the age of the little 'tards? It's not like Facebook and Myspace where the little bastards post their pictures and age...

Well I have to say I disagree. There's no reason why people should be stopped from communication with people whilst not on the site. People do not have to share any of their personal details on the site (your email can be hidden if you want), but they can if they want.
I believe you were alluding to the thread about Edi and Diplomat. Well, I remember reading through it and noticing that, apart from the few people trolling away, the posts were all sensible and along these lines.
There is no way a random member can find out your email address if you have chosen to hide it and you don't have to tell them.
Part-way through your post you said you felt it should be a ban-able offence. Now, whilst I think I disagree, could you clarify your point? However, I do think there's a much stronger case for making it a ban-able offence to distribute *other people's* personal details

Oh, and trim101 - my email is on my profile, but apart from that no

Draugnar - I would an age limit is never added. some of the most interesting players are under 18, or have been on this site since they were under 18.

see i asked figle he said no how simple is that?

I never said we should, just that it is a better alternative to banning people for asking for some contact info to try and better communication.

Your safety can be guaranteed by your own choices. We know this. There is information that shouldn't be given out, but an email address or MSN address is not among those. A telephone number is perhaps different because you can work out from that the address of a player, and people need to be made aware of that, and generally of safety risks associated with the internet.

On the other hand, people should not be banned for attempting to find some other way of contacting people, for instance, both the QFDT and leagues rely on external communications to run, and I wouldn't have been able to do the Ghost-rating system without using MSN, nor would I have been able to test and comment on the development that figlesquidge is doing.

We should also remember that if somebody really wanted to get personal information for malicious purposes, a threat of a ban from the site is unlikely to cause him to think twice, and I would wager he would be no more likely to get reported than if he tried to be genuinely invasive with the status quo.

Draugnar - you make some good points. And I say, "hang all the lawyers". I am not discussing language. I would say about language I don't use that kind of language you consider so precious in the play of the game, while I might use it freely at times. The image I project through my play is a bit more serious - I think the use of that language with strangers in this format would be ill advise - not offensive. I would like the thread to stay with what is, as opposed to your versions of utopia. Rights are not limitless. I don't propose taking away any rights you actually have. Hate to be the barer of bad news it is just freedom requires responsibility.

Let's say - to all the adults in the room. You take a potential chance dealing with minors in this manor. However effective it might normally be. I suppose my issue is that rules of interaction in my profession are so ingrained that I would feel unsafe in communicating with a minor in this way. I do communicate with my students through email, these emails are considered public information and are saved and available for revue. I also have a professional need(reason) to communicate. I, also, would be alarmed if my minor children were contacted by an adult through this sight when such an effective method of communication is already available. I am around the issues of child safety and know some of the legal and historical/practical issues around this. This is not a Utopian discussion - I am trying interject some reality. You can say what someone should do - there is no well posted advise on this sight about saying no. As a child - did you always do what you should have. If a predator did find this site and use it to make contact, the desire to win the game or win favor with a new friend may lead the minor to make a bad decision.

All a predator needs to do to get info is ask.

Well as an impressionable minor, 15 atm... I must say that I have been on the internet chatting it up with all sorts of people since I was 11. I have gotten my my space page hacked and have gotten asked where I lived, for phone numbers, and whether or not I wanted to a ride up to San Fransisco to go play in Edi''s Whipping tournament.

And look, I'm still alive and kicking... No ones raped me, no one has any personal information that I wouldn't want the whole world to know, and there's no naked pictures of me floating around the internet.

Now I know it may be a hard concept to grasp but the majority of people who get "abducted" on the internet and people who don't have any friends/life at all... They are the people who have 1,000+ friends on my space just to make themselves feel nice. They then think people actually care about them (people they have never met before) and go hang out with em without any parent...

I've met people I never knew online, but I knew people who were best friends with them so it worked out. As long as you add something about not giving out too personal of information (your street corner and house number) in the fine print you can't legally get sued as you did post a warning.



Any who, for off site communication, if I find something in common(same video game/hobby) I will try and add them on aim or myspace of xfire. Just so we can talk and do stuff that isn't diplomacy related, so that should just stay the same.

And Draug, "They don't play well most of the time anyhow and they don't last long enough to become a predators target. Finally, how would a predator know the age of the little 'tards? It's not like Facebook and Myspace where the little bastards post their pictures and age..."

I have more daggers then you and I'm 15 :P and a link to my picture is about to go up on my info thingy. And I plan to stay playing for a long time. I contacted Edi via email and hes sent me some emails of other players in my area (downtown Los Angeles[ and no I'm not a chargers fan, GO RAMS!) so were gunna try and get together and play a game. So nyeah xD

TheClark:
As a 17-year-old making a similar point to xcurlyxfries, get over yourself.

xcurlyxfries - you are so awesome!!! Also, nobody needs to be abducted for this to be an issue. You really don't know much about internet predation. I am not saying the site is a festering pool of risk - just that it should be considered a real concern and not considered laughable. Your example falls under the category of apocryphal at best (a unique example which neither proves or disproves a anything) the only aspect that saves it from the apocryphal it that it is your story. Also, I don't suggest a particular solution outside of strongly dissuading the practice possibly by banning the practice. Better suggestions my be out there.

Communication through myspace or a similar forum is ok. The things that bother me are telephone numbers and physical meetings. Maybe an advisory about the issue is in order. I've been over myself many years ago, but thanks for the advice, Panarsenic!

Thanks for everyone's participation - so far a good thread. I have sponsored a high school club that played diplomacy. Most of the time I would get my butt kicked. Once somebody understands the game there is no disparity in play between a 15 year old and a 50 year old. Time in the game is the big advantage. Diplomacy is an excellent game with a lot of benefits that follow into life. sure wish the last president had been a player. Not every player that come to this sight is going to be emotionally mature enough to really play well with other - as most of us have experienced. I wouldn't want to disparage folks under the age of 18 as a class.

Just have on the site that giving out personal information is at your own risk and bam, case closed. I'm going with my dad anyway since I can't drive yet so I'm not worried.

And I do know alot about internet predation... As I said before, I've been on the internet since 11, through yahoo chat rooms to other site's forums and I have done my fair share of research. I have a overprotective mom, and my dad is a teacher so I know a whole lot about this issue.

But I'm going hiking today so I won't be able to chat about how much I understand it.

TheClark, I appreciate your concern, and I do agree up to a point, but after that I do not.

I agree that players on this site under the age of 18 should be wary if they are actually meeting up with people for a F2F game. I'm not saying Edi's contacts aren't trustworthy, I'm just saying it would be generally much better practice if you had parent/guardian supervision if you're meeting them in person. I wouldn't discourage you from the face to face experience because it really is something else, but as a rule you should always be wary of meeting someone that you met over the internet.

However, communicating outside the site is unenforceable and I would in fact encourage it. It does no harm to have someone's instant messaging information and if you don't want to give out your information then just don't. People should understand and respect your privacy. I certainly wouldn't welcome random phone calls especially from people in timezones in which I'd probably be sleeping. So I don't post my phone number. There are a variety of other means to reach me if the in-game system doesn't do it.

I don't think Kestas shares any responsibility if anything of this sort happens. I know Facebook and MySpace have been getting pressure but that's because people passively have their information posted and most people can simply look and find out almost everything about a person. Getting contact information here is an active process and nobody is going to get it without your permission.

That said, I'm 18 and have been exposed to the internet and it's questionable denizens since I was nine. The incidence of such abductions is extremely low for the massive amount of minors on the internet. I would say that for the most part we all learn how to take care of ourselves in the unmoderated environment that is the internet. It's very valuable experience because it probably more closely mirrors "the real world" more than schools or suburbia in many ways.

XCurlyXFires: My apologies to you. You are one of the more mature teenagers I've talked to. And, yes, you have more daggers here, but I only discovered this site recently. I've been playing dip via the judges for years and have been playing F2F since before you were born. That aside, you are a talented and wlecome addition to the community. Please accept my apology for the insult. I guess it proves what I said about the predators would not know the ages anyhow as I would have put Diplofool as being a "kid" and you as a 20 or 30 something at least.

And I guess I need to apologize to Chrispminis and Pandarsenic as well. We do have some very mature under 20s on here. Maybe this 40 something should take some lessons from them. Apologies all around from me.

I still feel banning a person for wanting to communicate better outside of this site is a bad idea. Heck, I want to get together a moderate stakes cash game, $50 buy in, $10 per SC cash out when the game is over. I'd be banned because that requires some personal contact and is encouraging to meet face to face. Oh, and my use of the language was to make a point. I tailor my language to the situation, and the worst you'll normally see out of me is "What the hell?" and "Damn nice stab!" in my communications in game.

The idea behind this thread really was generated by the recent thread concerning Edi and Diplo. I can't say that I read every response to that thread nor the several ancillary response threads like this one that have ensued. If I got the whole thing wrong - feel free to correct me. It did sound a bit like an insinuation was being cast at Edi. Thankfully for him, he is a well know entity and makes this habit a practice enough that no real dispersion could stick. Although, he did feel the need to reveal the text of the communication. It made me think of the number of false accusations that occur in my profession. The accused goes through some hell and my never recover there good name and reputation. So dangers abound for everyone. One thing that this sight has that other communal sites don't have - a game that is about duplicity, double dealing, etc. Most of the people that love diplomacy are among the most trustworthy folks around. I think they like the outlet for their repressed alter egos. Also, they get to explore that side of human nature that they would never exercise in real life. Every once in a while I have played with a person that comes unhinged. Not well equipped emotionally to deal with the double dealings, the ganging up, the losing, etc. That is when one needs to be careful about the extent of the contact. You don't know anyone really - don't assume they are all health individuals. It is just a board game - but we have all had to remind someone. Or maybe we've been reminded ourselves. Banning is probably an unwarranted and unworkable response. Probably and advisement and an encouragement to prospect in a more visible and formal setting. there is a lot of space on the site that is unused and could be a place where the community advertises events and local F2F groups to join. Sometimes games can lead to lengthy conversations afterward.

I concur with your desire to see caution given precedence. I also feel that the use of personal experience in this discussion is highly misleading. Perhaps the sort of individual that finds themselves spending time on a site like this is less likely than most to get duped, but the fact remains that across the whole population of young people there are those who for one reason or other will drop their guard at some point, and there are those out there encouraging this to happen.

I see no wrong in raising awareness on this issue.

We should also monitor the site for terrorists, the "smart" terrorists know that their phones, email and facebook communications are being monitored so they might want both join the same game here and can then chat about assassinating the president without anyone noticing.

Oh and while we're at it let's ban bras because the metal support bit can be used to poke people.

Seriously though, the type of kids that play diplomacy are not the dumb kind.

Really?

How about those who set up three+ multis and still lose?

It is also quite possible that a lonely kid or a stressed one makes a mistake. Smart people make mistakes too, big ones. Just ask Madoff's friends.

Good Point from flashman!

I think it's meta-gaming and should be restricted to a point.

Well how likely are they to try their luck at F2F? It's not like they can pretend to be four people there...

hahaha

Ok, if any of you out there are Bernard Madoff or one of his close confidants I call on you to come forward with contact info including Name, address, telephone #, SSN, etc so that we, the Diplomacy community, may do our best to ruin your lives, stalk you, assult you or whatever floats our boat.

My view of this is rather old fashioned...
1. We are here to play a game
2. This site is the adjudication site that is all it is
3. this site allows for some communication through it, but it is incidental to its primary function which is adjudication, distribution of results and the original matching of players

For me this site is inadequate in its functions in communication. For example I cannot send a single message to multiple players at once so that they all know for sure that I am sending the message to them.
I cannot send map files to the players, or anykind of files.
Any site that forces me to communicate only through it is not going to have my support.

I can understand the delicate matter of minors. People forget sometimes that when I joined the hobby I was the youngest person at 16 in it. At that time not only did we use our own names, shock and horror for some but additionally ...are you ready for this concept: we used our real addresses at HOME where people would send us messages this was at a time when 95 per cent of everyone's home phone number could be reached by dialing 411.
Guess what, it worked. The Hobby was built on it.

Now, I understand the problem, I raised two kids, I have two grand kids one of which is a 15 year old. I understand that there are sicko's and perverts and nut jobs out there. There is also ways to deal with all of that and still keep the social fabric of life together.

There is nothing wrong with being asked what your name is, and if you want to communicate by email or even phone or even meet at a game convention . For the kids, the answer is a polite no thank you. That is all it takes.

As a child I was led to believe that everybody on the internet except for me was first and foremost concerned with abducting and raping me.

I'm not sure where any of these people are, but since I'm an adult now, am I one of these predators?

yes? no? how do you want us to answer that question? anything we say could be morally distarious to you.

I think he is, hes putting sinful thoughts like rape or "abduction" into our fragile little minds

Okay, I ask for your indulgence if I am repeating stuff here...

As a Moderator on a much much busier and nastier site than this a few years ago I came across all sorts of behaviour that was frowned upon by the owners and the community at large. We had very difficult issues to deal with resulting from, in particular:

a) getting people sacked by sending information to their companies (especially regarding being on-line during work hours and setting people up with nasty files. One, a lawyer [sic], was dismissed after his frequent on-line boasts about being in a conference and using the site while the clients thought he was reading contracts were transferred to the Partners and he was caught red-handed.);
b) legal threats - including one action - as a result of orchestrated abuse...

In my time we never quite had a revealed pervert although video clips were posted from time to time that would make even the most liberal minded blink, but we were very concerned about the possibility of trouble and tried hard to keep the site user friendly without being overly sensitive.

We were frequently lampooned as authors of a nanny state but the moment we dropped our guard we found the quality of communication went down almost in proportion to the increase in smut and abuse etc...

My conclusion from the experience is that we were correct to apply a reasonable level of enforcement/encouragement in order to maintain the quality of the site for the benefit of the majority of users.

We actually set up a junior Forum for minors and asked a few of the more savvy members to moderate this and let us know if anything suspicious was happening. It was not such a healthy site (less members) but the idea seemed to work well.