In two recent outings as Turkey I tried this and experienced Russia players seemed baffled by what to do.

It's very much a min/max move. You either reap the benefits or you die.

How? At worst you get a Russian fleet in Ank... unless theres a worse scenario im missing.

And on the off chance Russia doesnt bother with Black sea you can stay in Arm as a buffer. And signal Italy with a F-Ank build.

Russia moves an army to Sev to counter your Armenian army and also goes for Ankara. You're stuck at 3 SCs and Russia has a build with Sev open. I guess you're in the Black Sea, but it's a very risky opening.

'He who will not risk, cannot win'. Good morning brainbomb!

ok foxy bomb, i got a game for you to try your theory

@chaqa, turkey bounces ank by moving con and arm there, You are on 4 and have a choice of building a med fleet in smy to counter lepanto, or a black sea fleet in ank to take the fight to the russians. Russia can't build a second fleet in the south as he just moved an army in.

Honestly the traditional bounce in Black Sea is so played out. I keep wondering how it "helps" Turkey at all. a Russian fleet in Black sea with a Turkey army in Armenia is problematic.

Worst Case scenario goes like this.

Turkey goes
Bulgaria->Rumania
Con goes to Black sea
Armenia goes to Sev

Russia counters with:
Galicia (If even), goes to Rumania
Ukraine ->Sev
Black sea-> Ankara

Now Turkey is in trouble UNLESS Germany bounced Sweden. Russia can build in Sev, and has all the ground, and now Austria (If) can take Bulgaria also.

Its certainly a gambit, but in gunboats without coordination its interesting.

My one criticism: Russia can still git a build off in Sevastopol.

A first round move to Black Sea has less risk, and it's SO EASY as Russia to simply move back on Sevastopol.

then the prerogative is on you to either bounce him and leave him build there, or stay back and risk not getting an easy build.

Also you're lucky Russia hasn't made a move from Warsaw to Ukraine and Moscow to Sevastopol.

True. I think Russian play perhaps is in far more need of opening revisions. Isnt it true that 70% of Russoa openings involve A-Ukr F-Bla A-Gal?

A-gal should be a bounce, no austria wants russia in gal in 1901, just too many centers to cover and too few units to cover with.

Black sea is powerful, but not necessary is R and T intend to play nice with each other. As Turkey i would often tell Russia i intend to move to arm and allow him bounce it if he doesn't like it. Thats frees the turk from worrying about black sea.

And getting two fleets into the med in 1902 is massively useful for turkey in disuading Lepanto. Now if that is not the goal you can do something else. But the way i see it the advantage is getting past the gridlock of an army in con blocking your access to the med.

It seems to a move with potential, in gunboats at the very least. How much of Turkey's success came from the move, and how much from the Italy-Austrian conflict, is perhaps worthy of a debate. Are there examples of how that typically works out when there isn't the tailwind of an Austro-Italian fight? And how does it go when Russia is less unlucky with his initial guesswork?

And I have been seeing more (in ftf games, anyway) an early German attack on the Bear. If that is happening, the Desert Fox is a timely maneuver.

Stop publicizing my favorite opening.

Its pretty freaking solid. I never liked playing as Turkey til now

Turkey is easy. You won't lose as long as you can keep one of your three potential enemies from attacking you.

I think it works in gunboat, against noobs, but in full press,Russia will cover Sev almost always as this is the right thing to do and a half decent Austria will either use this to help Russia or to convince Italy to go Lepanto (or both) and it will cripple Turkey. Unless I am totally convinced that Italy will attack Austria at start or my talkings with Austria were just amazing, I will not go full force against Russia that way.
Orathaic approach seems a lot better in fp games as you still get your fleets where they should be and don´t burn all the bridges with Russia (you can do that with a fleet Ank build if you really want).

I hate Turkey, and it's been 3 of my last 5 games. Awful country to play. Death by boredom awaits you at every turn. If this move can liven up a full press game it may be worth trying for that alone.

Germany's much more fun. I like Germany. Have I mentioned I've not been Germany since 2013?

Turkey wins or draws if they get Sev-Rum-Bul. If not, they do nothing.

@brainbomb

that's questionable, you're entirely dismissing the juggernaut: entirely unused in recent time

Juggernaut is far better for Russia I thought?

I need to finish work on my variant, so i can see if it is as balanced as i think ;)

Actual Diplomacy strategy talk? My body is ready.

What is the best "im not a cowardly wimp" Russian opening lol.

Is there a cowardly Russian opening? If a Russian opening exists that doesn't leave you feeling a hair's breadth from disaster I'd love to hear about it.

Mos - Hold
; War-Ukr
; StP-GoB
; Sev-Rum

usage seems like a good way to die

For whatever reason, lately Russia, Austria and Italy have all completely forgotten how to stop turkey.

gameID=184007

^^ That game was a bit warped, due to a lack of Germany. If Russia hadn't gone North and West, and Italy hadn't lent me (an outplayed France) the support of a fleet, then England would have soloed...