#10 is incorrect. France CAN hold his centers forever:

Kie-Mun with support from Ruh and Bur means a Triple attack on Mun won't succeed and Mun can't be dislodged.
Mun-Sil and BAL-Pru means that no attack on Ber can succeed

France is now free to use HEL and NTH to take Den.

Wrong. If that happens several turns then Russia moves back Prussia for a turn, having BAL move into the Prussia and GOB into BAL. Then Russia can retake it forcing a force disband of the fleet. After that France loses Berlin and Munich.

France cannot hold his centers forever.

I got to agree with jmo here. From the looks of things France could conceivably muster four supports against five Russian attacks. They MAY hold Berlin, but I guarantee they break somewhere else in the process.

It only needs to happen that ONE turn. After that first turn, France will have control of Denmark which allows Kie to pick up some of the slack.

I'm with Tru.

Here are French orders which will ensure safety for Berlin:

Kiel->Berlin
Berlin->Silesia
Baltic Sea->Prussia
Munich->Silesia
Piedmont->Tyrolia
Burgundy->Munich
Ruhr sup. Burgundy->Munich
North Sea sup Helgoland->Denmark
Helgoland->Denmark

In this case, France will manage to hold onto Berlin for this year, while retaking Denmark. He could possibly lose Piedmont, but that won't be a huge issue in the future. With Denmark back in French hands, Kiel can support Berlin unopposed. The rest of the stalemate line will hold with Tunis, Tyr Sea, Marseilles/Piedmont, Munich, Berlin, and Denmark unassailable. The only way Russia could get around this would be to stab Italy and build fleets in St. Pete, either north or south. Both could do damage. And of course, France could make an error.

I think you missed the exact point roka was making. The question wasn't if France can hold Berlin that year, but if he can hold it forever. Which he can't. I should know, I was Russia. Did you read the solution?

"Tunis, Tyr Sea, Marseilles/Piedmont, Munich, Berlin, and Denmark unassailable. The only way Russia could get around this would be to stab Italy and build fleets in St. Pete, either north or south. Both could do damage."

Russia is getting a build that turn from a force disband. He doesn't have to stab Italy for that build. There is NO way for France to hold out there till the end of the game.

If Russia has a disband, then that's correct that France cannot hold Berlin forever because Russia can build a fleet in StP and cause issues. Barring that build, France can keep it forever.

I didn't noticed that France had destroyed Russia's fleet. It wasn't very evident from the picture.

Actually, the fleet build may or may not help Russia.

If France moved MAO-ENG in the fall and ENG-NTH in the spring while moving to the NRG in the spring, Russia's fleet won't be able to help in any way as it will be bogged down supporting a hold on Norway so that Russia doesn't lose Nwy

I still say its 100% that France can hold Berlin and Munich indefinitely given Russia's setup.

Plus, France has an additional fleet not being put to use in Belgium, so he has 2 fleets not currently in the picture that can be of use stopping the ONE Russian fleet build.

That's irrelevant. Russia's fleet has to be build in the south coast to dislodge baltic. Once France loses baltic, he loses Berlin. France would have to take Sweden before Russia takes Livonia to secure Baltic and Berlin, but he can't do that. Taking Norway has no impact on anything.

Wrong again:
Fall moves: I've already outlined the moves that Germany makes in the fall except a few units, so the army units outlined earlier plus the BAL fleet mean nothing is lost to Russia and everything is stalemated with no losses.
Fleet movements:
NTH-Den with HEL support
Bel-NTH
MAO-NAO

That build phase, Russia gets his fleet in StP sc and presumably moves it to Lvn while moving the army out (it's the only sound means of moving the fleet, but in the end is irrelevant--it's certainly the FASTEST)

France orders:
Bal-Pru
Mun-Sil
Ber-Sil
Kie-Hol
Hel-Kie
Bur-Mun w Ruh support
Pie-Tyr (could become dislodged in the process--irrelevant)

Under this, Russia has at most a strength 1 attack at Munich, meaning it's safe and at most a strength 2 attack at Mun which is safe from Bur/Ruh combo.


That means, by the fall, Russia COULD try to attack BAL with strength 2, Den can move to BAL with Kie support that is also strength 2 while France continues the attacks described above.

That fall, France takes Norway, following Spring France takes Sweden and StP is soon to follow.

So Russia keeps attacking Baltic with two units and also attacking Berlin from Silesia. France has fleets in Norwegian see, North see, Kiel, Baltic and Denmark. Now, Kiel, Baltic and Denmark are busy making sure Russia doesn't get to Baltic and cutting support from Prussia. That leaves two units to take Norway, to which supporting Norway from Sweden is enough. Now, France can spare one fleet from the south. By the time it gets there, Russia will have armies in both Finland and St. Pete. That is enough to support Norway against not just one, but two additional fleets (4 in total), which France doesn't even have. France needs to use either Baltic or Denmark to take Norway or Sweden, but the moment he does he loses Baltic and with it Berlin.

@Tru Ninja wrote
#10 is incorrect. France CAN hold his centers forever:

Kie-Mun with support from Ruh and Bur means a Triple attack on Mun won't succeed and Mun can't be dislodged.

@KingCyrus wrote:
Kiel->Berlin
Berlin->Silesia
Baltic Sea->Prussia
Munich->Silesia


Guys, this is even worse. If Russia supports Munich->Silesia from Warshaw, then Denmark retreats to Kiel, giving Russia 2 builds, not one, while France has to disband a unit because of losing Kiel.

If Russia supports Berlin to Silesia, and lets Baltic into Prussia, then Prussia takes Berlin, causing a France disband, but not just that, losing Baltic is even more devastating.

When analyzing situations like this, the point is, if there's a 100% solution at all, not just a good enough solution. I think the idea of triple attacking Munich is a good one, but not 100%, as the bouncing in Silesia (or simply attacking it from Munich) is the weak link, as Munich can get into Silesia actually.

Just imagine Livonia is convoyed to Sweden, Denmark retreats into Kiel, Prussia moves to Livona (letting the French fleet into Prussia), Galicia to Ukraine, Silesia to Galicia.
Then France has to disband a unit (likely mid-atlantic) but Russia can build not one, but two units, and by postponing a build, he might actually manage to build a 3rd northern fleet 1 round later.

Even worse, 1 round later, Warshaw takes Prussia with Livonia support. Galicia and Kiel take away supports, Sweden attacks Denmark, and then the French fleet is disbanded as GoB moves to Baltic. From that point on, France can't hold Berlin anymore.

rokakoma: Welcome back! What do you have? A Google alert or did someone fetch you?

@JECE thx, but I'm afraid I'm not "back". Anyways, Split dropped me an email, that maybe I want to check this out.

It's always good to have some feedback about these quiz examples, and I'm still not sure this particular quiz is correct, even though Tru Ninja's solution is not proving otherwise. Still, it might be enough to prove, the quiz is not black or white, and it's not necessarily true France loses Berlin for 100%.

Whatever the conclusion of this discussion will be, the objective of the quiz is achieved, namely to make people think about unfamiliar and complex situations :)

#10 is the only one I'm dubious about. I'm at Saturday school right now, so I'll look at it after work.

I like the quiz and I might go through some games and look for a few others if I get time.

Thanks to Abge for posting and rokakomma for putting it together

Yes, thanks abge!

Really great stuff.