Well, first, you signed up for webDip and thus gave up a social life or functional interactions with decent human beings. That's the first place It Went Wrong.

Shh, Valis. I blame society. It's always society's fault.

P.S.: Was this a standard press game or otherwise?

From the link: WTA, full press.

Just looked through the maps... Russia should have stabbed in Spring 1911 with War-Gal, Con-Bul, Smy-Gre, which guarantees you Gre + Bul + Bud, going from 12 SCs to 14-16SCs. Depending on Austria's response, probably loses Mun, but gains at least 2 builds, and could potentially have gambled on moving A StP-Fin to open for build F StP(nc). Possibly also Boh-Vie in Spring (in fact that's probably best if you're going to stab, and just abandon Mun as a waste of units you need to capture Austria's home SCs). Build A Sev and A War at least, and that should probably net Serbia and maybe if lucky Trieste in 1912. Then it's a race to see who can pick up Venice, and if you don't, then you're stuck on 17SCs instead of 18.

I just skimmed through the game and it looks like an interesting one. It might be a day before I can get some commentary up, but looking forward to hearing what others have to say in the meantime.

I gotta say, I don't agree with thorfi. Losing Munich in 1911 would mean that Russia would be up to 14 max that year, and with no way to hold Berlin (because you'd lose Boh), Norway (because F has Ska) or Turkey (because three units is not enough to defend Turkey) against a hostile F/A alliance, I think stabbing at that point leads to a French solo.

I think sticking to the alliance at that point was the only option.

Interesting game, though. I'll have a proper look later.

I second that a stab should have came in 1901, though both spring and autumn have pros and cons, spring could have lead to more devastating results. Something for the Russian player to keep in mind is to pay attention and guess others motivation for their moves. In this case, France. Notice that he became complacent with support holds, figuring there's no hope to trying to attack at current troop count. Exploit this. When you stab, go all out. Here are my suggested move changes for spring 1911.

Norway - Norwegian
St. P - Norway
Sweden supports St. P - Norway
Baltic support holds Sweden
(The Brest fleet should be a cue that the north naval battle may change soon, at the very least, this will lead France to needing to be concerned over England, next turn you have the option to convoy into England to keep France's fleets busy while you enact your true plan in the south)

Bohemia - Vienna
Silesia - Bohemia
Warsaw - Silesia
Munich holds
Berlin support holds Munich
(Predicting France isn't going to bother attacking, you can shift units around. I think you can stab Austria while still keeping Munich so that you only need Austria's original centers and the Balkans to win. Maybe less if the fight in England goes in your favor.)

Con - Bulgaria SC
Aegean - Greece
Ionian - Albania
(Here's where the fun happens. You get two guaranteed Centers and you threaten Trieste with a supported attack. That will force Tyrolia to become involved and keep it away from Munich.)

With this you have a number of options for the Autumn turn. You could try supporting Albania to Trieste, you could send Vienna to Budapest and Bohemia to Vienna for a predicted four builds. You could convoy Norway to Edi knowing that France can either protect it or take Norway. Could go for Clyde knowing that you can sacrifice one of the four builds for position. The biggest weakness is that Austria likely moves Ionian - Aegean and Tyrrhenian - Ionian to threaten Smyrna next turn. You should be able to hold off his damage and get new units there before France supplants Austria.

One last thing, I want to emphasize that after the stab, you would protect Munich. France can't win without it. Those four units are worth it. besides, you get many more units from the stab that you don't need to compromise the line.

Dear Russia,
I have to say, i am a big fan of the northern opening, and you used it to great effect. England was doomed and France strengthened.

So why oh why did you end up losing the north? While you had an Austrian ally (and a french enemy) you should have had more fleets in the northern oceans (and perhaps less armies) While you were focusing on turkey and italy you let France grow too strong on the spoils of defeated england - and without italy, germany or england to stop him France became a super-power.

You need allies in this game, and you did well to keep Austria onside, but you didn't need him to be so strong. He could have spent years fighting italy without your help and been in a weaker position because of it (ie easier to stab, and less of a threat)

It is possible that you needed to keep England alive; at least until you had your units positioned to take his home centers. Ok, sure, you didn't need his centers to win, but you did need Framce to NOT have them.

As others have pointed out, there was a point in 1911 where a well timed stab could have won you the game, but i think you went wrong in 1906. You disbanded a northern fleet, you helped France finish off England, and eventually this cost you Denmark, then Norway, Sweden and StP.

At the time Austria was in no position to stab threaten you, and had a nice little war to fight, England could have been rescued and used for two things. To hold centers for you so you didn't appear close to a solo, and to distract the french so the couldn't advance onto StP.

Now you could have won without StP, but that would have required holding the entire south and pushing deeper into the med. I think your position in the North was the key to your potential solo. And this game shows why i love a Northern opening for Russia (For England i have less love for northern openings, because getting past StP is extremely difficult, but for France, getting TO StP is often enough to solo)

Yours, With Admiration for taking the North, but Disappointment that you couldn't hold it,

O Rathai, C, Official Unofficial Commentator.

My opinion here, when going solo as Russia you must own at least one sea and then have one alliance strong for an end game stab.

Where did he go wrong?

1906 build should have been a fleet in NC STP & and bolstered his alliance /reliance on AH in the center.

1910 should also have been a NC STP fleet build. The army build served no real value.

With those two fleets, more SC's would have been available to fund end-game armies to stab Austria at the end.

Also the 1909 southern fleet retreat to Black Sea was a poor move. I would have at least move it to Smyrna instead.

I do think this one is pretty simple- you let France get too strong. Once France gets 11 or 12 SCs on the northern half of the board, he is guaranteed to get the rest (minus possibly Munich and Berlin). You needed a counterweight to France.

Here are my thoughts on the southern half. In 1902, putting a fleet in Bulgaria looks like a mistake. I think Russia needed to either move in on Turkey or convoy Sev-Bul to position himself against Austria (or Turkey). Turkey may have been willing to support Sev-Bul, as he did end up supporting Bla-Bul and the army is even more aggressive with respect to Austria. With a fleet in Bulgaria, I agree that building a fleet in Sev was a good choice. If I had it my way though, I would avoid that situation by leaving the fleet in the Black Sea. If Russia didn't want to do this because he was worried about Austria's growth, he could have put an army in Gal sooner (I'm thinking Spring 1902) and talked to Italy about containing Austria. With the way things turned out, Russia still had a good position. By 1905 I would have been looking toward Austria. I would't have built a fleet in Sev in 1905. An army in Warsaw or even an army in Sev would have been better. In 1906 Russia needed to do something about Austria if he wanted a solo. There were already too many fleets in the south and all the units were in the wrong spots. At some point Russia had to pull the trigger on Austria, yet he was never quite in the right position to make it happen.

ATC: StP-Fin frees F Bal to defend Berlin and clears StP for a build, so losing Boh is not fatal. (It's a gamble, but IMO given the French moves in prior years I would have tried it, and obviously in 20/20 hindsight world it would have worked). But I like TheReinvented's northerly moves better, and am more equivocal about the southerly plan - it works, it's just higher risk than I like. But that's probably a strategic failure on my part, not to like that higher risk. :-)

I also agree with ag above - 1906 should have been Build F StP. I'm also not sure what happened in Press, but I would have been trying pretty hard to recruit England as a janissary power. I get the impression that's what France did and reaped the benefits in F1908.

1901-1902

Russia clearly worked some impressive diplomacy, being gifted Sweden and pitting Austria and Turkey against each other for his own gain. When you're Russia and Turkey is supporting you into Bulgaria in 1902, something's going your way. With the Sevastopol fleet build, Russia clearly plans on stabbing Turkey a second time.

1903-1904

This Russia sure is brutal. He's managed to stab both Austria and Turkey and so far has gotten away with it. That's not enough, though, so he stabs Germany too. Fortunately he secures Austrian neutrality and Italian (and less directly French) assistance, which is good because England turns on Russia the moment the German invasion begins.

Russia ends 1904 in an impressive position and a fleet build in StP NC clearly shows broader ambitions. He's also stabbed half the board by this point and is an obvious threat, so good luck pushing forward without substantial opposition.

1905-1906

France demolishes England and Germany, and Turkey is finished off. This would narrow down the list of Russia's enemies, as those he stabbed earlier are all getting eliminated, but he adds Italy to the list and blocks some French expansion. Russia has now personally screwed over every player in the game in some fashion, and "shot first" in every case except England. No one should trust Russia at this point.

His diplomacy (or intimidation) clearly isn't lacking, though, as Austria builds a fleet! By averting a united front against him, at least for now, he might have a shot at a solo.

1907-1908

Having just Austria on his side proves to be insufficient, and the crippled England sides with France to push Russia back. Italy loses ground, however, strengthening Austria, and England is eliminated when France turns on him again. France is now a huge threat, and it'll now be up to Austria who ends up on top. Italy is probably doomed unless he can convince Austria to spare him.

1909-1910

Austria sticks with Russia, and Russia gets Munich. Italy is reduced to one center, while France establishes a defensive line across the map. Austria is left really vulnerable to Russia, and there's no way that a 2-Way is plausible, so he needs to make a 3-Way happen. While Russia might be able to solo with a very successful stab of Austria, France has little immediate solo prospects. He should be doing everything he can to sway the Austrian.

1911-1912

Italy falls, and France is unable to convince Austria to defend his homeland. Said homeland, however, remains unattacked. Russia likely concludes that he lacks enough units in the proper positions to take and hold enough centers quickly enough. While he could quickly do some damage, France is positioned to immediately counterattack and Austrian help would not be negligible.

France, of course, is disappointed, as Russia stabbing Austria is also the only real hope for France to get better than a 3-Way. He manages to break into Norway, but this game looks like it's about to end.

1913-1914

France takes Scandinavia and StP, but as he surely already knew he gets stalemated after that. With Russia never stabbing Austria, the line is held, and now Russia can't stab Austria at all. France's advance thus forces a solidification of the board's state, and predictably the game ends.


Very impressive play from Russia in this game. It's not often that one can stab so many people early on and get away with it. Keeping Austria on his side was huge, especially with France growing while all the minor powers were destroyed. That said, the positioning of the board was such that a French elimination was all but impossible, meaning that Russia had a narrow window if any for stabbing Austria. Really, any Russian stab probably would have resulted in a French solo.

Austria, France, and Russia all played smart, for the most part. As such, I'm not surprised this game ended in a draw.

Fantastic analysis, everyone. Really enjoying this.

@Tasnica, not ever attack is a stab.

And being able to say something like, "i'm sorry austria, i was just following turkey's advice, what do you think i should do??" Is a perfectly valid way or redirecting someone's anger at your desired target.

So here's a bonus question: Is there anything France (or indeed anyone else) could have done better to solo?

I need to look at the maps again before I answer that though. :-)

France could have 'encouraged' an austrian/russian stab.

@Orathaic: My terminology was a bit off, sure, but my point was that most of those conflicts probably weren't planned by the receiving parties. I did compliment Russia's diplomacy, though, for making a lot of it work out.

"I really thought in 1904 that I had a solo shot. I am 100% sure that I timed some stabs wrong, and messed up a guess in losing Kiel. Where did I go wrong?"

I will freely admit that getting to 18 centers is my weakest point. If you want to make it to a draw, I'm your man, but I'll see what pointers I can give. If you want to solo, you need to start counting your centers early; the earlier the better. If you don't, you'll find yourself stuck at 12-17 centers with nowhere left to go. With that in mind, let's start looking at the game:

1901:

Right from the start I have criticism. Why bounce England in NWY? If you want to solo, you'll probably need Northern England. Why race France to it when you could use England to stall for you? Let him fight France while you focus in the South and then gut him from behind when you are ready to assault him with full force.

1902:

I liked the Spring of 1902, my opinion of Scandinavia notwithstanding. I'm surprised you turned on Austria in the Fall when he was so eager to help you take Turkey. I'm sure BUL was tempting, but I would have taken the help to quickly take out Turkey. By artificially propping up Austria, you could have also quelled fears about your rapid expansion.

Meanwhile, you'll note that England and France started working together against Germany, partly, I suspect, because he knew his north was not secure. As Russia you want a weak France, preferably England and Germany over-committed in the West. You certainly don't want England working with France.

1903:

1903 gets a bit odd. Your re-stab Turkey, un-stab Austria, stab Germany, and un-stab England. Very busy. The problem now is that you have the trust of no one and the only people you are helping (France and Italy) are the exact two countries you need weak to solo.

1904:

This is where your mistakes came home to roost, imho. You say in 1904 you thought you had a real chance to solo. I say by 1904 you had lost your chance. England collapsed and you had none of it. It's true you finally got into Turkey, but you got less of it than you would have with Austria. Instead of Austria overcommitted with an Italian war and a nice backside for you to take, you have a strong Italy and Austria Proper full of armies.

1905:

1905 was a pretty good year. You seem to have realized you needed Austria and you made good progress in the north. By this point, though, I think France had gotten too big. Let's see:

Russia+Turkey+Balkans+Scandinavia+Berlin is 13. Where can those other 5 centers come from? You could take the rest of Austria, but it's unlikely you'd get GRE or TRIE. You certainly weren't going to get KIE. Maybe EDI, but that still only gets you to 17.

Now it's important to note that France is getting very strong, too. With that fleet build in MAR, you may have been able to convince Italy that France was the solo threat, not you. The problem is by this point you had zero credibility. Italy had already watched you stab and unstab everyone you could; whereas France has worked with Italy all game. It's at this point in the game that it helps to have a small country in your pocket, who trusts you. It is these small countries that become critical to get the solo; unfortunately, by the time you need them, it's too late. You need to build relationships early.

1906:

Another good year for you. I'm impressed you were able to take KIE (in case it isn't clear, I'm commenting as I go). You also lucked out with Italy mistrusting France enough to fall back to ION. It also appears you're starting to build trust with Austria (by his fleet build), which I'm impressed by. If Italy and Austria got along a bit better, you'd be in a lot of trouble.

Still though, despite your progress, you aren't up much in centers and the board is starting to solidify. While annoying, those little countries are key to causing chaos. You just need them to cause more chaos to your enemies than you.

1907:

You continued to work very well with Austria. If you had a hand in getting him and Italy to fight, then well done. Losing EDI and KIE was disastrous, though. This is where having helped England early against France would have paid off: you could have cashed in on the favor. You say you guessed wrong with KIE, but I honestly don't see what your moves were meant to defend against. England taking DEN? I would have left DEN open, to be honest. There was a much better chance of England taking EDI.

1908:

1908 is where I think things really end for your hopes of a solo. You've lost England and most of Germany. France has no become a real solo threat in his own right, so you need to keep Austria as a balancing force. Italy will probably be eliminated and I don't see any way you can race France to 18. But, let's see.

1909-1915

Yeah, as I expected, you spent the rest of the time working with Austria to prevent France from soloing. A good call, by the way. With how close you've been all game, it must have been hard to accept the draw, but not doing so would have been disastrous.

Overall, I think you played an amazing game. The biggest advice I'd give is the importance of building relationships (at least one) throughout the game so you have some credibility when you need it. This can be exceedingly hard to do and I will freely admit it's a serious weakest of mine as well.

I hope this has helped. I eagerly await criticism on my analysis.

A lot of people seem to be advocating for a 1911 stab. I looked back at the map, but I just don't see it. Russia would have still lost the North and certainly Mun. Even if he took all of Austria Proper and the Balkans he would have been stuck at 14 with a serious chance of Austria throwing the game to France. I don't see how a 1911 stab could have possibly ended well for Russia. It would have been amazing for France, though.

1911 is a great opportunity to hand France the game, imo.

I'm still looking at 1906.

How could he have stabbed Austria in 1906?

You misunderstand. I don't think 1911 was a missed opportunity, i think 1906 was when he threw away any solo chance, because france took the North.

A stab into austria for the last few centers would have been much more realisable, IF he held stp, norway, sweden, denmark, and edi - along with fleets fighting france further south of that.

I understand and agree.

Great discussion. I like this new feature.

@ATC

Will we get any indication if the submitter's question was adequately addressed?

It will be accompanied by Draugnar announcing his glorious return and thanking us for the advice.

This is a lot of fun to read! Great thread idea, very nice analysis. WebDip at its best.